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1st fp vs 2nd in variable scope

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/14/2018 at 15:54
st235 View Drop Down
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I tried to search this but got no results, I know it's been asked before. But If I buy a variable scope is the second plane that bad. Seems a lot of the scopes I want are second plane. Why I don't know because as far as I have learned the first plane is better.  Thanks: Steve
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/14/2018 at 16:44
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What are you doing with the rifle scope, hunting, long distance shooting, punching paper.... ???
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/14/2018 at 16:47
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depends on your intended use of said scope.   I don't own a first plane scope mostly because I don't need it... as I don't use the reticle to gauge distance.
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First focal plane is better if you are using your reticle as a measuring tool or as a hold over tool.  If you are not using it for either of those things second works fine.

On my Leupold hunting scopes, I just use duplex reticles that are 2nd.  I use my rangefinder to find the distance and then dial in corrections.  So in my case 1st focal plane is not needed. 

It really does depend on how you want to use the scope and how much effort you want to put into practicing with that reticle. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/14/2018 at 17:00
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Depends on what you are doing. 

Second Focal Plane is widely popular among most hunters. In addition to that, since most hunting scenarios do not exceed a three hundred yard shot, the velocity with most calibers isn't going to be affected by the distance of your shot. In most cases the reticle is etched to be used on the highest available magnification, unless otherwise specified in your manual accompanying the scope. 

However, first focal plane reticles are relative to the target, regardless of what power setting is. I.E. while shooting targets and then when you determine you missed and use the reticle to determine by how much, the reticle is relative. 


As you would commonly magnify or demagnify your target, in second focal plane the reticle appears unchanged. 
For instance, here's a small target on 18X

Specifically, look at the top of the post in the 6 O'clock position. 

Now, here's the same target, demagnified and now on 10X. 

The reticle to your eye hasn't not changed, but look at the 6 o'clock post, that distance has. On FFP reticle that value wouldn't change. It would be the same no matter what the magnification is. 

Let me ask you, what would you be using it for?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/14/2018 at 18:29
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The reticle in a first focal plane scope gets BIGGER as the power is increased!  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/14/2018 at 18:40
st235 View Drop Down
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Thanks a lot. that really helps clear things up. I will use it for hunting and long range shooting at a gong just for fun. the picture comparison was great. Second plane will work for me just fine. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/14/2018 at 18:42
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I wrote about this a little while back:
http://opticsthoughts.com/?p=1915
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/15/2018 at 02:44
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I briefly used a first focal plane scope. My experience was that unless you engaged big targets (man size, deer size, vehicle size) to judge distance the first focal reticle became to small to be of any use. I tried it on 6 inch steel plates and it was of no use.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/15/2018 at 03:48
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Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

I briefly used a first focal plane scope. My experience was that unless you engaged big targets (man size, deer size, vehicle size) to judge distance the first focal reticle became to small to be of any use. I tried it on 6 inch steel plates and it was of no use.

That is not really correct.

Reticle design with FFP reticles is a bit more involved.  I suspect the FFP scope you tried was some sort of an archaic design.  Modern reticle designs have resolved this issue.

Still, for range estimation, it pays to use the largest object available to you.  Reticle rangefinding off of a 6 inch object is tricky with any scope and any reticle.

ILya
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1st is great for target/ tactical/prs shooting. Makes holds easy. Not so great for at low power brush hunting. Reticle can get to thin an and lost in timber. That's where I prefer 2nd
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/15/2018 at 11:07
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Originally posted by GiantGreg GiantGreg wrote:

1st is great for target/ tactical/prs shooting. Makes holds easy. Not so great for at low power brush hunting. Reticle can get to thin an and lost in timber. That's where I prefer 2nd


As I said, it all comes down to reticle design and illumination quality.

Plenty of FFP scopes with fine across the magnification range.

ILya
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by GiantGreg GiantGreg wrote:

1st is great for target/ tactical/prs shooting. Makes holds easy. Not so great for at low power brush hunting. Reticle can get to thin an and lost in timber. That's where I prefer 2nd


As I said, it all comes down to reticle design and illumination quality.

Plenty of FFP scopes with fine across the magnification range.

ILya


It also has a lot to do with zoom ratio as well. High zoom ratio scopes in FFP will show a much greater variance in how bold the reticle appears at lowest vs highest magnification vs a typical 1:4 zoom scope.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/15/2018 at 13:17
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by GiantGreg GiantGreg wrote:

1st is great for target/ tactical/prs shooting. Makes holds easy. Not so great for at low power brush hunting. Reticle can get to thin an and lost in timber. That's where I prefer 2nd


As I said, it all comes down to reticle design and illumination quality.

Plenty of FFP scopes with fine across the magnification range.

ILya


It also has a lot to do with zoom ratio as well. High zoom ratio scopes in FFP will show a much greater variance in how bold the reticle appears at lowest vs highest magnification vs a typical 1:4 zoom scope.
agreed. I got a razor ii 3-18, and I don't go below 5 usually because of how hard the reticle is to see at that magnification. Somnething like a 3-9 for with a little thicker reticle would be unstable at all power range.
It just depends on scope model to model and illum.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/15/2018 at 13:18
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Sorry typo. 3-9 for be usable at all power
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/03/2018 at 07:09
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

I briefly used a first focal plane scope. My experience was that unless you engaged big targets (man size, deer size, vehicle size) to judge distance the first focal reticle became to small to be of any use. I tried it on 6 inch steel plates and it was of no use.

That is not really correct.

Reticle design with FFP reticles is a bit more involved.  I suspect the FFP scope you tried was some sort of an archaic design.  Modern reticle designs have resolved this issue.

Still, for range estimation, it pays to use the largest object available to you.  Reticle rangefinding off of a 6 inch object is tricky with any scope and any reticle.

ILya

I'm not sure how the modern FFP scopes get over the shrinking reticle but would like to put in a word for 'archaic design'. Until the late '50s in America and the '70s in Europe, most scopes were FFP because turning the knobs just moved the reticle itself, not the whole erector set in a spring-suspended Mini-me. The new system made the reticle appear constantly centred without any care in mounting - looks and seems great but leaves scopes exponentially more vulnerable to recoil damage.

How do the makers cope with that? Various improvements are constantly claimed (without the problem being explained) but their best trick is lifetime, no-questions-asked warranties, which give buyers a warm-and-fuzzy as long as they're not on safari when the scopes fail.

There is another advantage with FFP reticles, though, whether in the old or new systems. That is that FFP reticles are always at one with the country and critter behind it. With second-focal-plane variables this is not so, and if any slop develops in the power scroll (ahead of the reticle) the point of impact may vary at different magnifications. Makers say that they have conquered this problem - but they would, wouldn't they?
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