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After much consideration - I hate Glocks

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/21/2018 at 09:51
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 Maybe I should take a step back and try again.

I'm a 1911 guy, I learned on the old WW2-era guns, then moved into M9s.  This was just after the days of "real men carry wheel guns" and long before the days of "Tupperware" firearms.  So, yes, I am getting old.

Anyway, my point is that indexing for me was trained in long, long ago on guns that don't have Glock's grip angle.  For full disclosure, I completely agree that a Glock wrist with proper index is a far more stable platform - from a pure physics perspective - than is an upright 1911 wrist.  But I learned on what I learned on, it works for me, and shooting is a confidence game.

A few years ago, I decided to get my first Glock - then I got probably 5 or 6 more.  The damned things work, and well.  They are adequately accurate for a combat handgun, and their single greatest strength - reliability - is the singular most important characteristic of a combat handgun (opinions might vary here, but probably not by much.)

So, first Glock was a 30, I hated the sights, I hated the trigger (most of all), and I hated the stubby frame that prevented a full purchase.  But it was small, disappeared easily in my wardrobe, and had 10 rounds of 45 on tap when/if needed.  That is 3 more rounds than a full size 1911, in a gun far more concealable.

From there, I went to a G22 and 26 and 43 and 36 and 17 and 19 and 34 and... all the while, accepting that the trigger was not going to break how I wanted and my hands are too damned big for the trigger well and something other than the pad of my trigger finger was going to drag something somewhere.  I tried a Lonewolf frame to alleviate at least the finger drag (and it worked), but was left with the trigger break.

I  shot them all, I tried to love the blocky, plastic masterpiece of modern engineering, I suffered through the trigger pull if only for the knowledge that the gun on my hip is all but failsafe - and, again, in a gunfight, a handgun that doesn't function is little more than a rock.

For me, it came down to confidence in a 1911 (or similar) or confidence in a Glock, and for a few years, Glock won out.  The HKs and 1911s stayed in the safe while the Glocks road out with me.  This is also due in no small part to the fact that Glock is very much weather impervious, and is a great summer gun if only because sweat doesn't rust the thing under normal conditions.

Then, a few weeks ago, I decided to try a Sig FiveX, and the Glocks are now all for sale - or soon will be.  The reasoning is fairly straightforward: all the things I hate about Glock are absent from the Sig (but it does have a few issues of its own - just "other" issues.)  The Sig indexes perfectly for me, the trigger is orders of magnitude better- at least in break, and my hand just fits the gun better.

With the new Sig's first trip to the range, I alternated between it and a gen4 34MOS (with Shield RMS - but that's a different thread)and the Sig was so much better as to make it not even close.  Then I went to Lonewolf (with RMR) and the Sig, and the Sig won yet again: better trigger break, neither have an impressive reset.  The Sig wasn't locking open on an empty mag, but that started disappearing after about 300 rounds, running 10 rounds through all 4 of the 21-round mags in rotation.  That was the only hiccup of the day.

So now with a shelf full of Glocks and accessories, I have finally found a Tupperware gun I like more - and I like it for all the reasons I didn't like the Glock.  

In yet another post, at some point, I can go over RMS vs RMR vs iron sights.  Then maybe throw the HK P30 into the mix, just to make sure everyone the world over disagrees with me entirely.

For now, the Glocks are still in the rotation, but only till I can get a Carry kit installed and broken in.  Then the "for sale" will go up, I anticipate.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/21/2018 at 10:39
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If this is intended as a carry gun and you're a 320 fan and prefer the X trigger over the standard 320, why the Five-X instead of the X-Carry? I get the appeal of 21+1 rounds on board and all, but man, that's a huge parcel for an everyday CCW. I think I could live with "only" 17+1 capacity.

In the world of "Tupperware" pistols, I've become a huge fan of the Walther PPQ, but the regulars here likely know that already. Not everyone likes the more "contoured" grip ergos it has; that's a personal preference thing. It happens to fit my hand perfectly with the "medium" back strap installed. As far as triggers are concerned, there is no stock striker fired polymer pistol currently made with a better trigger. There are perhaps a couple that come close or are "just as good," but none better.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/21/2018 at 10:48
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 The Xfive (or fiveX or whatever) was more an experiment than a concerted effort to displace the Glocks.

I didn't expect to like it as much as I do - and for the reasons I do.

The Carry is more an extension of the experiment.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/21/2018 at 11:59
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Glocks are the AK47 of handguns. That is not a good thing. I was lucky in that putting a Glock in my hand is like trying to put like poles of a magnet together. I owned one for about as long as I owned an AK. 

My use of handguns, besides targets, is hunting and concealed carry. That means DA revolvers for hunting and DAO revolvers for carry. There is no place in my use of handguns for training on a weird grip with a limited use platform. 

Agree on the Walther PP line as the zenith of plastic pistol design. I realize most people prefer pistols, even when they're the wrong tool, so I recommend PPS, PPQ or SW99 whenever anyone asks. 

And I think the reason so many professional users are such bad shots is because a normal amount of training is not enough to overcome the odd Glock design.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/21/2018 at 12:55
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 It's funny you should mention that, having used AKs and ARs extensively, the metaphor is fairly accurate: both are made relatively cheaply with loose tolerances to allow easy swapping and robust function in various environments and circumstances.  There is much to be said for the durability of a good AK - just as with a Glock.

For many, reliability is paramount - as well it should be - and Glock is one of the best options of the semi-auto kind.  Your option is also quite good, though less capable of a sustained "field of fire."  Then again, in a defensive scenario, if you are laying down a field of fire, things are pretty damn circumstantially  terrible.

Ted has tried to push me toward a Walther for a few years now, I haven't listened, sadly.   Which is probably at least partially why I have a harem of glocks that I do not love.  If the Walther trigger is superior to the Sig trigger, it is definitely worth a try.

My frames of reference for outstanding trigger are STI/SVI/Nighthawk 1911 variants, a super awesome Novak HiPower, and a few HK P7s.  If I could find a striker-fired weapon that approached any of those, I'd buy a few - as would almost every other striker-firing shooter I know of.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/21/2018 at 13:15
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I've been carrying a Glock 22 for about 20 years, but not because I wanted to. They were issued to me and I was told that is what I was going to carry. As a good officer and firearms instructor I saluted and learned to love the Glock. I'm a Glock armorer for my department, and I've gone through the Gen. 2,3,4, and 5.
While I agree with most of what Rancid Coolaid said, there are some things I will disagree with. First, I don't think the Glock is as reliable as many would have us believe. Almost every malfunction you can have with any other auto pistol you can have with a Glock, and I've seen most of them. Glock knows this too; why do you think there are now 5 generations of a pistol that was declared perfect at the first generation? Many of the changes made in the following generations were to make the pistol more reliable. Second, Glocks will break, and I'm not talking about broken sights from dropping it, or some other abuse. I'm talking about parts breaking from abuse, wear, and defective parts. These are things that Glock told armorers to check for, so it's not something I discovered. Extractors break from improper loading, all springs need to be replaced regularly, and strikers need to be inspected regularly.
As for the grip angle, I was happy with the Glock until I took a high speed low drag pistol class and discovered that the trigger guard was beating the crap out of my trigger finger making it painful to fire.
There are a lot of things I don't like about the Glock, and while I have confidence in the pistol, I'd rather have a Sig P320.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/21/2018 at 14:11
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 I didn't say they were indestructible, I said they are reliable.

All mechanical devices have parts that wear out with use.

I hate the trigger and the guard on my Glocks.

Carry on.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/21/2018 at 14:14
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:


Ted has tried to push me toward a Walther for a few years now, I haven't listened, sadly.   Which is probably at least partially why I have a harem of glocks that I do not love.  If the Walther trigger is superior to the Sig trigger, it is definitely worth a try.

My frames of reference for outstanding trigger are STI/SVI/Nighthawk 1911 variants, a super awesome Novak HiPower, and a few HK P7s.  If I could find a striker-fired weapon that approached any of those, I'd buy a few - as would almost every other striker-firing shooter I know of.

Remember, I was also one of the ones who pushed you toward the H&K P7/PSP family (though maybe you were already well on your way toward buying one anyway and I merely helped nudge you in that direction. Or maybe I had no influence at all, IDK...but anyway, you get the point). I think you will have to agree, that recommendation didn't suck. In the interest of accuracy, the P7 family is striker fired, albeit with unusual cocking mechanics involved. 

Yes, the PPQ trigger is superior to the Sig trigger, except for the fact I prefer the feel of triggers without the drop safety tab in the center, but there has to be tradeoffs made in the pursuit of drop safety. If you recall, a year ago, it was discovered that the Sig 320 wasn't totally drop safe; it would periodically fire if it impacted the rear of the slide when dropped. So, Sig reduced the trigger mass (as opposed to using a safety tab) to reduce trigger inertia. The PPQ's pull is shorter, maybe a touch lighter pull weight, and the reset is MUCH shorter and more distinct than the Sig 320. Some think the reset is too short, in fact, at only 0.1". You have to train to avoid occasional double taps, the reset is so short. In fairness, its trigger isn't custom 1911 good nor close, but no other pistol design is either. Its better than any other polymer framed striker pistol, and in most comparisons, way better. Given the gun's lack of any external safeties and the fact it's a striker fired pistol, its trigger is damn good.

The PPQ is the same size as a Glock 19. Just like a Glock, it has a polygonal rifled barrel, the same "3 drop safeties," the same takedown method, The same "point and shoot" manual of arms, and the same mag capacity as a G19. It is a proven reliable design, having been in service for more than twice as long as the Sig P320, and it's an evolution of the P99, which has been in service for over 20 years. Despite sharing all the design virtues of Glock, it dispenses with the things people complain about Glocks. It has a much better trigger by light years. It doesn't have Glock's poor slide to frame fit, with that wide ass gap and warped dust cover. It doesn't have the Glock blockiness, with nicely radiused curves everywhere. It has much better grip ergos, or at least my hands think so. The grip has nice texturing yet isn't so aggressive to be irritating. It has a more roomy trigger guard, with undercut at the rear. It has both front and rear slide serrations. Its ambi slide release is larger and easier to manipulate, yet streamlined. It has a micro-adjustable rear sight, with the micro-adjustment inset nicely into the side of the rear sight. I don't really care that much for the stock sights, but I have Trijicon HDs on mine.

I had recommended the Walther PPQ to a friend and former co-worker of mine who, like you, has always been a huge 1911 guy. Hell, I like 1911s too, just not for carry. He started getting away from the 1911 for CC because he wanted more magazine capacity, and settled on the Springfield XD Mod2 4" 9mm. He balked at my PPQ suggestion because of bad experiences he had in the past with other Walther designs (I agreed with him on that, however, I try to judge any firearm on its own merits, not based on something else that has the same brand name). So, after work one day, I had him handle, take down, and try to the trigger on my Q. He agreed the trigger thoroughly kicked the XD's ass and it had nice build quality, but he'd already made up his mind that the PPQ just wasn't for him. Just this week, he picked up a used PPQ M1 (paddle mag release version) on a trade with a friend, and he texted me this morning on my way to work that he's become a reluctant PPQ convert after he actually shot it. He included a target in his text with a fantastic 30-round group.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/21/2018 at 14:35
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I had two Glock 23s for several years.  IIRC I put about 6000 rounds through one of them and about 2000 through the other.  Twice the 6000 round one the trigger froze up on me completely.  A little powder blast and some oil fixed it up, but a weird thing to happen non the less.

When I would run the guns left handed is when they would kill my trigger finger.  Right handed was not so bad for me personally.  I ran a couple 4 day pistol classes with them left handed and my finger was so freaking raw and sore. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/21/2018 at 21:22
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I'm a great fan of the Sigs, on Ted's suggestions I tried the Walthers (several variants) and REALLY like them, Love the Kimber .45s, but find no reason to replace any of my Glocks with one of them.  Many rounds through my 17 and 33 and never a failure... never a reason for concern.  I bought the FN 5.7 and absolutely love it, though it is a difficult carry for me... my 33 is still my "go to" for a CCW.  The FN 5.7 is as accurate as I could wish for and one hell of a self-defense handgun... 
No problem with any of the comments in this thread... everyone's tastes/likes in handguns are personal... as most "gun things" are.  I guess that is why there are so many different brands, calibers, etc...

As the commercial says... "Glock... suits me..."
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/22/2018 at 04:37
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It's interesting, the first handgun I ever fired was a Glock 17. Shot it with several hours of instruction and somewhere North of 500rds through the gun. I really wasn't sure hand gun shooting was for me. I picked up a Sig P226 in 9mm and I new in less than a mag I preferred that!

Funny how some things just suit you better
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/22/2018 at 08:04
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No doubt we all agree... Glocks will always have their place in history and firearms evolution.... they started the plastic gun phase.   I've never been a fan of glocks, never pointed well to me but I have several and shot them good enough for self defense and know they serve me well as a grab and go CCW when I just need to go. I have dozens of firearms in a regular rotation of carry guns.  Kept myself up at night with worries I'd grab one and muscle memory from another gun would cause a delay in the event I needed to draw my weapon..... But I regress and normally just carry whatever mood I'm in...

 

Glocks have a purpose but so did the Makarov at one timeWink lol

 

I'm a equal opportunity gun carrier.....  its the PC thing I understand.

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Exactly, Graham; well said. 

I have a lot of respect for Glock. They were very innovative and completely changed the landscape of defensive handguns forever. I have a Glock, and I like Glocks overall, despite my dislike for certain Glock design features. I think their fire control system mechanical design is genius. I don't think selecting a Glock is ever a bad choice. There's a lot to be said for the value of familiarity and confidence in a product.

As the old saying goes, "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." That being said, competition leads to refinement. I believe in the ensuing years that other pistols have managed to "out-Glock Glocks."
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 Which specifi PPQ do you have ted?   They have a 45 now.... it appears.... Is yours the classic?

 

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PPQ .45 has the economical American style safety. If you want the Euro style lever and .45 you look for a SW99.
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Graham, I have the PPQ "M2" ('Merican style button mag release, as opposed to the "M1" version with the paddle style mag release levers alongside the trigger guard, similar to the H&K VP series), 4" 9mm.



Mine is stock except I changed out the factory sights with Trijicon HDs, with the orange donut up front, and I changed the factory plastic guide rod with a stainless steel rod. There are no reported issues with the factory plastic rod, and many others use a plastic rod, including Glock. I just like the idea of having a SS guide rod instead of plastic. Here are the Trijicon HDs:



In this photo, you can see the microadjust mechanism in the rear sight. These are the easiest to replace sights in all of gundom. Simply press down on the spring plunger pin shown, and the sight body slides right out. No hammering with a punch or sight pusher required. Yet, the mechanism is nicely inset into the sight body so it won't move inadvertently during normal use.



I also recently bought the Q5 Match, which is a 5" barrel length competition version with replaceable dot sight mounting plates and cool looking slide cuts. It plays in the same arena as RC's Sig 320 X5, except with "only" 15 rd capacity vs the X5's 21. I have the Shield RMS mounted on mine. Since I relegated it as strictly a range toy, I did replace the factory trigger with an Apex "Thin Blue Line" trigger. Truthfully, the factory trigger was very good as-is, being the same as a standard PPQ except blue colored (?) for whatever reason. The Apex is really no "better" in terms of smoothness, pull weight, or reset, but it does remove all of the pre-travel present in the factory trigger, and it has a different feel. It's a slick gun that shoots VERY well, and to my eyes looks uber cool doing it.



I was always a huge fan of Sig classic series alloy frame pistols, and still am. I have a P229 and P239. I'm "old school" in that I had a hard time getting onboard with the "plastic fantastic" craze. I always stubbornly held to the belief that fine firearms should have a bare minimum of plastic parts, even though the practical side of me realizes that not all "plastics" are created equal and the word "plastic" carries with it an unfair stigma that often isn't valid. The PPQ series caused me to do a complete 180 on that. 

Returning back to the subject of the PPQ trigger, I feel I need to clarify what I said to RC about it being "better" than the Sig's trigger. It does have a shorter, smoother pull with a much shorter, more distinct reset. To me, that equates to being "better," but "better" means different things to different people. Some have complained it is too light and has too short a reset for a carry gun, and a valid argument could be made that even though it may be "better" in the traditional sense, it isn't necessarily better for a CC gun, where you may actually want a heavier trigger with longer travel.  
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 Ted, do they make a plate that fits the RMS or did you have to improvise?

My Sig has a slide cut for their Tango red dot, but I'm not sure how to go about putting an RMS on it - need to investigate.


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I am going to diverge from the herd here.  

My first handgun was a Glock.  I went to the store to buy a handgun and was picking between Sig Pro, HK and Glock.  HK mag release did not work for me: gripping the gun caused the magazine to fall out.  The last Sig Pro was purchased by the guy right in front of me.  As I was deliberating, the guy behind the counter said that he has a used Glock at a discount, so I bought it.

I learned to shoot with a Glock, so the grip angle works for me.  The trigger wore in with some practice, although I replaced most of Glock triggers with Hayley Skimmer ones a couple of years ago.

I messed with the grip frames a little.  Not to change the angle, but rather to change the texture.  I replaced the sights and cut most of the slides for co-witnessed red dots.

In the end, I've got several Glocks that fit me like a glove.  They always go bang, are reasonably accurate and I've got many tens of thousand of rounds through them.

Oh, and I live in California, so all these newer guns you guys mention, I can't buy.

ILya
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

 Ted, do they make a plate that fits the RMS or did you have to improvise?


It comes with plates for Trijicon RMR, Burris Fastfire, and Leupold Deltapoint, as well as s conventional iron sight insert as part of the kit, along with 3 mags and 3 grip back straps. The standard Shield RMS shares the same mounting footprint as Leupold Deltapoint, so I just used the Deltapoint plate.
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

I am going to diverge from the herd here.  

My first handgun was a Glock.  I went to the store to buy a handgun and was picking between Sig Pro, HK and Glock.  HK mag release did not work for me: gripping the gun caused the magazine to fall out.  The last Sig Pro was purchased by the guy right in front of me.  As I was deliberating, the guy behind the counter said that he has a used Glock at a discount, so I bought it.

I learned to shoot with a Glock, so the grip angle works for me.  The trigger wore in with some practice, although I replaced most of Glock triggers with Hayley Skimmer ones a couple of years ago.

I messed with the grip frames a little.  Not to change the angle, but rather to change the texture.  I replaced the sights and cut most of the slides for co-witnessed red dots.

In the end, I've got several Glocks that fit me like a glove.  They always go bang, are reasonably accurate and I've got many tens of thousand of rounds through them.

Oh, and I live in California, so all these newer guns you guys mention, I can't buy.

ILya






















Same boat, got lucky and bought a VP9 on SSE while Kali residents still could, wears Trijicon HD's, love that pistol!


Edited by mike650 - August/22/2018 at 17:14
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 Leupold Deltapoint plate: that is good info!
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Keep in mind that Deltapoint and Deltapoint Pro are different plates.

Shield has the same mounting pattern as Deltapoint and Jpoint.

ILya
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Keep in mind that Deltapoint and Deltapoint Pro are different plates.

Shield has the same mounting pattern as Deltapoint and Jpoint.

ILya

What is the Pro footprint? Same as Fastfire?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/23/2018 at 13:00
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Originally posted by urbaneruralite urbaneruralite wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Keep in mind that Deltapoint and Deltapoint Pro are different plates.

Shield has the same mounting pattern as Deltapoint and Jpoint.

ILya

What is the Pro footprint? Same as Fastfire?

I do not think Deltapoint Pro shares footprint with anything else out there.

The location of the screws seems the same as Deltapoint, but locating posts are larger in diameter and sight body is different in length and width.

ILya
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There's a SW99 .45 on that auction site right now. It has box 'n' doc.s. Complete examples don't show up often. 
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