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AR10 Scope 0-500 yards high clarity?

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space_weazel View Drop Down
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    Posted: December/30/2018 at 13:47
Building a 16" .308, been sorting through scopes.
I have a 3-9x40 Accupoint, 4x acog and a 6-24 PST gen 1 for comparison.
Looking to shoot 0-500 yards at steel, though those 4" plates at 400 yards are pretty small.
Plan to use holdovers so turrets are not a necessity, but a ranging reticle is.
What I don't want to do is over glass it with too much magnification, but would like to get as bright and clear of glass as is reasonable, good color, and a sharp image I think will be more important than turrets FFP, ect. 

I have considered the 6x Acog (should be really bright and has a good holder system), Accupower 2.5-10x56 (trijicon glass again should be bright and have a very forgiving exit pupil given the large bell) , VXR 3-9 (supposed to be decent glass, like the firedot, but haven't seen through one)

Just looking through the window out into the woods this morning, the 4x acog continues to be shockingly good and clear, the accupoint 3-9 at 9x feels darker and less sharp without much of an improvement in what I can see given the extra magnification, the PST at 10x  is decent but underwhelming and at 24x i can see stuff but it gets obviously dimmer and less color.

Budget is dictated by features and value, If the 6x acog is what will best meet the needs/wants than that's the budget, if I can get almost there for $700 at the Accupower maybe that's the better choice and buy more ammo.

What other optics should I be looking at, am I on the right track of thinking here?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2018 at 00:41
You should be looking in the 3-15x magnification range and stick with FFP ranging reticles.

You should probably take a close look at Vortex PST Gen 2 3-15x44.  It punches above its weight class and should do everything you are asking for.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scrumbag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2018 at 01:21
Hard to go wrong with something in the 3-12x50 range I'd have thought.

Have fun with it!
Was sure I had a point when I started this post...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2018 at 13:54
 I have a similar gun (16" 308 AR10) and it wears a 2.5-10x42 Nightforce.  I like the scope for the gun.  

I have several 3-15s and that would be a good range, but if you aren't spinning turrets, that narrows the field of potential contenders.

If Koshkin recommends something, I'd pay extra attention to that option.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2018 at 15:58
Consider this it may not work budget wise but should be considered if you can afford it.

https://www.swfa.com/u-s-optics-1-8-10x42-b-10-34mm-riflescope.html

U.S. Optics 1.8-10x42 B-10 34mm Riflescope

Matte, GAP, EREK 2 1/10 MIL Elv, US#5 1/10 MIL Win


3-9 Super Sniper would be a good choice with mil quad FFP reticle

on a 3-9x42 it will be brightest at 6x as power goes up it wont be quite as bright



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2018 at 16:08
 At some point, I will own exactly that scope (the USO, I already own the 3-9 and it is a great scope too.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2018 at 16:09
https://www.swfa.com/ior-6x42-tactical-30mm-rifle-scope.html 

IOR 6x42 Tactical 30mm Rifle Scope    $725.


https://www.swfa.com/swfa-ss-6x42-tactical-30mm-riflescope-105767.html

SWFA SS 6x42 Tactical 30mm Riflescope 

$299.95

Mil-Quad, 1/10 MIL Clicks, 5 MIL Revolution, Rear Focus


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2018 at 16:12
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

 At some point, I will own exactly that scope (the USO, I already own the 3-9 and it is a great scope too.)


Me too Love my B17 but would really like to own this also.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote space_weazel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2019 at 11:32
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

You should be looking in the 3-15x magnification range and stick with FFP ranging reticles.

You should probably take a close look at Vortex PST Gen 2 3-15x44.  It punches above its weight class and should do everything you are asking for.

ILya

Thank you, I was passing on FFP because i was looking at lower mag scopes, I agree that going above 10-12x FFP should probably be added to the list. I have been eyeing one of these PST Gen2's for my new(used) TRG, though I probably should have mentioned earlier that this AR 10 would be used mostly off hand or improvised support, would 15x start to get a little too much mag in that use, I was also hoping to minimize weight where possible, does this change your suggestion?

Thank you for your time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote space_weazel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2019 at 11:37
Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

Consider this it may not work budget wise but should be considered if you can afford it.

https://www.swfa.com/u-s-optics-1-8-10x42-b-10-34mm-riflescope.html

U.S. Optics 1.8-10x42 B-10 34mm Riflescope

Matte, GAP, EREK 2 1/10 MIL Elv, US#5 1/10 MIL Win


3-9 Super Sniper would be a good choice with mil quad FFP reticle

on a 3-9x42 it will be brightest at 6x as power goes up it wont be quite as bright



Thank you, this looks great, I know this scope is a tank and has excellent turrets, have you had a chance to see the Trijicon 2.5-10x56 and this USO 1.8-10x42 side by side or in similar situations? I'm wondering if the price difference includes a noticeable change in glass or is it in the quality of the overall build?
I'm not intending to be running turrets up and down and for as much as this rifle will be carried around would prefer capped or at least locking turrets, what are your thoughts?

Thank you again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2019 at 12:24
Originally posted by space_weazel space_weazel wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

You should be looking in the 3-15x magnification range and stick with FFP ranging reticles.

You should probably take a close look at Vortex PST Gen 2 3-15x44.  It punches above its weight class and should do everything you are asking for.

ILya

Thank you, I was passing on FFP because i was looking at lower mag scopes, I agree that going above 10-12x FFP should probably be added to the list. I have been eyeing one of these PST Gen2's for my new(used) TRG, though I probably should have mentioned earlier that this AR 10 would be used mostly off hand or improvised support, would 15x start to get a little too much mag in that use, I was also hoping to minimize weight where possible, does this change your suggestion?

Thank you for your time.

Given what you are looking to do, I think FFP is important.  If you are using the reticle for holdover, you want to be able to do so at any magnification.  FFP makes that much easier.

3-15x44 Gen2 is a little bigger than I would have wanted ideally, but it is very good optically and has a tree reticle which can be important.

If you want to go smaller and lighter with mrad scale, but without a windage tree, SWFA SS 3-9x42 is just about perfect for what you want to do.

For offhand use, I seldom if ever go above 5x, but that is why you get a variables scope.  Top magnification is there to use when the situation allows for it.  Most of the time, you will be using some other magnification.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2019 at 13:12
If you are planning to shoot offhand at 4” targets out to 500 yards, you possess a skill set I do not.

I have used the Accupoint 2.5-10x56 extensively, it is a bright scope and I love the illumination. But it does not - that I know of - have a reticle you would use for elevation adjustment. And it is big.

As Koshkin said, if you plan to hold over via the reticle, you need an FFP scope, or plan on much frustration and many misses. I have one scope that I love that is SFP and I cannot tell you how many times I have adjusted my fire via the reticle and known instantly when I missed the mark due to the scope being at 5X or 8X and not at 12X - the only setting at which the corrections are accurate on the reticle.

Your needs do indeed present challenges, and I am starting to think a 6X ACOG with a red dot for close work might be a good option for you, especially for offhand use.

Edited by Rancid Coolaid - January/02/2019 at 08:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote space_weazel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2019 at 13:13
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by space_weazel space_weazel wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

You should be looking in the 3-15x magnification range and stick with FFP ranging reticles.

You should probably take a close look at Vortex PST Gen 2 3-15x44.  It punches above its weight class and should do everything you are asking for.

ILya

Thank you, I was passing on FFP because i was looking at lower mag scopes, I agree that going above 10-12x FFP should probably be added to the list. I have been eyeing one of these PST Gen2's for my new(used) TRG, though I probably should have mentioned earlier that this AR 10 would be used mostly off hand or improvised support, would 15x start to get a little too much mag in that use, I was also hoping to minimize weight where possible, does this change your suggestion?

Thank you for your time.

Given what you are looking to do, I think FFP is important.  If you are using the reticle for holdover, you want to be able to do so at any magnification.  FFP makes that much easier.

3-15x44 Gen2 is a little bigger than I would have wanted ideally, but it is very good optically and has a tree reticle which can be important.

If you want to go smaller and lighter with mrad scale, but without a windage tree, SWFA SS 3-9x42 is just about perfect for what you want to do.

For offhand use, I seldom if ever go above 5x, but that is why you get a variables scope.  Top magnification is there to use when the situation allows for it.  Most of the time, you will be using some other magnification.

ILya

Got it, that's a good point that I may not be ranging at full power depending on available light. 
Thank you!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote space_weazel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2019 at 13:31
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

If you are planning to shoot offhand at 4” targets out to 500 yards, you possess a skill set I do not.

I have used the accepting 2.5-10x56 extensively, it is a bright scope and I love the illumination. But it does not - that I know of - have a reticle you would use for elevation adjustment. And it is big.

As Koshkin said, if you plan to hold over via the reticle, you need an FFP scope, or plan on much frustration and many misses. I have one scope that I love that is SFP and I cannot tell you how many times I have adjusted my fire via the reticle and known instantly when I missed the mark due to the scope being at 5X or 8X and not at 12X - the only setting at which the corrections are accurate on the reticle.

Your needs do indeed present challenges, and I am starting to think a 6X ACOG with a red dot for close work might be a good option for you, especially for offhand use.

Sorry to clarify, 
While I will be packing this rifle around in the truck and on the tractor, it will also be used regularly in friendly competitions and those 4" plates at 400 are for aspiration and consuming ammo, it would be nice to hit them every few shots.
Mostly shooting in and out from 25 to 400 yards in varying positions and with varying support, 

So can I physically shoot 4" off hand at 400, probably not, but I got close and hit it once (maybe twice over the years) off a backpack, but I need to be able to see the plate if I want to try and hit it.
Sorry didn't want to give you the armchair commando impression.

I was thinking of the 6x ACOG because I have heard they are very bright and have a wide FoV, my eyes are still young enough to see the detail, but I have been loosing the smaller plates especially after they had all the orange blown off, when they went into shade and began blending into the backstop texture looking through the 6-24 PST, I wind the scope back to 10x and it becomes very usable again.


Edited by space_weazel - January/01/2019 at 13:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2019 at 14:17
6x ACOG is a brick.  It is a great machine gun optic and a mediocre anything else optic.

If you want a prism scope that will do something like this, you can try Elcan Specter DR 1.5/6x or Specter TR 1/3/9x.

Both will work in a pinch, but given what you are looking to do, I think a proper variable scope with a mrad based FFP reticle is your best bet.

If you are a MOA guy, you can try Maven RS1 2.5-15x44, but I think the reticle in Vortex' PST Gen 2 3-15x44 will work better for you.

PST Gen 2 is generally better in terms of image quality than Gen 1 and 3-15x44 is the best one of the line.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote space_weazel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2019 at 14:39
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

6x ACOG is a brick.  It is a great machine gun optic and a mediocre anything else optic.

If you want a prism scope that will do something like this, you can try Elcan Specter DR 1.5/6x or Specter TR 1/3/9x.

Both will work in a pinch, but given what you are looking to do, I think a proper variable scope with a mrad based FFP reticle is your best bet.

If you are a MOA guy, you can try Maven RS1 2.5-15x44, but I think the reticle in Vortex' PST Gen 2 3-15x44 will work better for you.

PST Gen 2 is generally better in terms of image quality than Gen 1 and 3-15x44 is the best one of the line.

ILya

Thank you, I have no attachment to a prismatic scope and couldn't tell you their specific merits, I tend towards Mil/Mil as its simple and easy for me to understand.
Do the turrets on the PST Gen 2 lock or is that only on the Razor's?
I'm going to try and get a look at some of these in person later today or this week.
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PST Gen2 turrets do not lock, but they seem to stay put.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2019 at 16:13

 I have had a chance to see both the US Optics 1.8-10 and the Trijicon 2.5-10x56.  My thought is the reticle on these scopes is radically different the 2.5-10x56 Trijicon is a hunting scope (200-300 yds) designed to be brighter in low light by two stops, big an clunky.  6x42 bright 7mm exit eye pupil 7x50 same same 8x56 same same so you gain brightness at powers over 6x.   I know you keep going back to the ACOG in a fixed 6x but I really see no advantage using that instead of a fixed 6x tactical scope like the IOR or the Super Sniper 6x42 either of which is ideal for hand held with a better reticle for hold over, The SS 6x Mil Dot is way easier to use for hold over in low light than the Mil Quad in the 6x but that changes with the  10x,  12x, 16x but they are not as bright so there is a trade off. With these the IOR has caps that screw on covering the adjustments it's an old design with 1/4moa clicks and a mil based reticle very similar to the SS Mil Quad reticle but awesome Shott glass.  One could of course duck tape the adjustment knobs on the SS to prevent accidental  mis-adjustment, and simply use the mil quad for hold over.  The U.S. Optics Scope is in an entirely different league than anything else being discussed other than the SS 3-9x42.  When you get a big clunky optic on top of a light fast rifle it just doesn't feel right. My Nemo 300WM has had several optics on it but I keep coming back to at 1-4 Trijicon Accupoint with red post, I do also have a second optic also in La Rue quick detachable mounts it is a 16x42 Super Sniper Mil Quad.  

https://www.swfa.com/swfa-ss-hd-10x42-tactical-30mm-riflescope.html  SWFA SS HD 10x42 Tactical 30mm Riflescope  Also a possible if you can hand hold one at 10x.  6x is quite do able 10x is challenging over that MEH!!! Which brings us back to the US Optics 1.8-10  FFP being the ideal choice.   suggest you take a 10x out and hand hold it rather than rest it to see the difference between 6x and 10x also at distances under 100 yds its tough to get onto something quick if over 6x.



Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - January/01/2019 at 16:19

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote space_weazel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2019 at 16:32
Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

 I have had a chance to see both the US Optics 1.8-10 and the Trijicon 2.5-10x56.  My thought is the reticle on these scopes is radically different the 2.5-10x56 Trijicon is a hunting scope (200-300 yds) designed to be brighter in low light by two stops, big an clunky.  6x42 bright 7mm exit eye pupil 7x50 same same 8x56 same same so you gain brightness at powers over 6x.   I know you keep going back to the ACOG in a fixed 6x but I really see no advantage using that instead of a fixed 6x tactical scope like the IOR or the Super Sniper 6x42 either of which is ideal for hand held with a better reticle for hold over, The SS 6x Mil Dot is way easier to use for hold over in low light than the Mil Quad in the 6x but that changes with the  10x,  12x, 16x but they are not as bright so there is a trade off. With these the IOR has caps that screw on covering the adjustments it's an old design with 1/4moa clicks and a mil based reticle very similar to the SS Mil Quad reticle but awesome Shott glass.  One could of course duck tape the adjustment knobs on the SS to prevent accidental  mis-adjustment, and simply use the mil quad for hold over.  The U.S. Optics Scope is in an entirely different league than anything else being discussed other than the SS 3-9x42.  When you get a big clunky optic on top of a light fast rifle it just doesn't feel right. My Nemo 300WM has had several optics on it but I keep coming back to at 1-4 Trijicon Accupoint with red post, I do also have a second optic also in La Rue quick detachable mounts it is a 16x42 Super Sniper Mil Quad.  

https://www.swfa.com/swfa-ss-hd-10x42-tactical-30mm-riflescope.html  SWFA SS HD 10x42 Tactical 30mm Riflescope  Also a possible if you can hand hold one at 10x.  6x is quite do able 10x is challenging over that MEH!!! Which brings us back to the US Optics 1.8-10  FFP being the ideal choice.   suggest you take a 10x out and hand hold it rather than rest it to see the difference between 6x and 10x also at distances under 100 yds its tough to get onto something quick if over 6x.


Thanks for the feedback on the Trijicon, I hadn't heard it described as big and clunky, I'll be looking at the 3-15 PST Gen 2 that Ilya suggested here shortly, it sounds like you both have great points, and the ability to drop the mag down and keep the reticle for varying ranges is important.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2019 at 16:39

 https://www.swfa.com/trijicon-2-5-10x56-accupoint-30mm-rifle-scope-18.html

I suppose if you went with the mil dot version you would be able to work with it but its second focal plane so the reticle will only be true at max power 10x and while you gain brightness above 6x the 56mm objective makes it handle differently than a 42 mm objective by a lot.

ILYA   ????    am I correct in saying that using this second focal plane 1 mil at 10x dot to dot at (5x would be 2mil dot to dot) and at (2.5x would be 4mil dot to dot)??? 


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https://www.swfa.com/vortex-3-15x44-viper-pst-gen-ii-30mm-rifle-scope-5.html

44 mm objective so we are still looking at 6x and below as being the brightest  setting but it is FFP so its reticle will be true at all powers that's huge if you are holding over plus this reticle will help with wind drift  holds even though it looks busy its a pretty nice choice.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2019 at 17:06
Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

https://www.swfa.com/vortex-3-15x44-viper-pst-gen-ii-30mm-rifle-scope-5.html

44 mm objective so we are still looking at 6x and below as being the brightest  setting but it is FFP so its reticle will be true at all powers that's huge if you are holding over plus this reticle will help with wind drift  holds even though it looks busy its a pretty nice choice.


Wes, you have to get off the 7mm exit pupil horse.  It only has merit during the pitch black of the night and even then it really varies for different people.  During a full moon night, for example, your eye pupil gets enough light through the scope to contract down from maximum dilation by quite a bit.

I do agree that FFP variable is the way to go for him.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2019 at 17:07
Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

 https://www.swfa.com/trijicon-2-5-10x56-accupoint-30mm-rifle-scope-18.html

I suppose if you went with the mil dot version you would be able to work with it but its second focal plane so the reticle will only be true at max power 10x and while you gain brightness above 6x the 56mm objective makes it handle differently than a 42 mm objective by a lot.

ILYA   ????    am I correct in saying that using this second focal plane 1 mil at 10x dot to dot at (5x would be 2mil dot to dot) and at (2.5x would be 4mil dot to dot)??? 


You are correct, but that means you have to calibrate the power ring of the scope.  It is a pain in the neck to always have to look at the magnification setting of the scope in the field.

FFP makes this easier.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/02/2019 at 08:32
 If willing to budget-bust, the Elcan Spectre DR is an awesome scope.  I have the 1X/4X and it is used most often with a clip-on NV setup, and it is great.  The adjustments are solid and the reticle is great if it matches your round of choice.

The primary advantages, in estimation anyway, for the ACOG are simplicity, durability, optical quality, and illumination scheme.  I know it is now antiquated technology, but I still like it for a mid-range "battle"
 optic.

Banging gongs at 400-600 is indeed fun, and I have taken a few offhand shots from 400-1000 just to see what I could do.  If the rifle is an all-around that will be thrown around, I agree with the either locking or capped turrets.

I'd look hard at the Elcan.  A good 3-9 might be an option too, but as said above, you need a hunter scope with a target reticle, and that limits choices a bit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote space_weazel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2019 at 00:04
I've gone and looked at a number of these suggestions and more, I really like the Elcan, though for now probably another build, I looked at a lot and kept coming back to the PST G2 3-15, and then Cabelas did about all they could to prevent me from actually giving them money, I left without it.

But that I think will work out, I'm still waiting on a couple parts for the build and when I get those I'll find a load it likes then worry about glass, probably start with the PST, but may end up putting that on another gun, I also became intrigued by the Leupold CST on the VX5/6HD line If this rifle has a load it likes that is readily available, this may be fun to try maybe shave a half pound off the gun?
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