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bent spent cases when shooting my Sako 75?

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mlv2k5 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlv2k5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: bent spent cases when shooting my Sako 75?
    Posted: May/29/2009 at 23:45
So I've noticed that when I shoot my Sako 75 (.270) the spent brass seems to all have a uniform dent/bend above the neck and just below where the bullet is seated in the casing. I asked my gunsmith about it when first noticed it a while ago and he said it was just something the ejector was causing and that it wasnt a problem or hurting the rifle. It never really mattered to me because I have been shooting factory ammo, but I have been wanting to get into handloading and bent cases seems like it would make this awfully difficult...thoughts?
-Michael
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rifle looney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2009 at 15:27
The ejector does not touch this part of the case so I think the marks or dents are stemming from something else worth checking in to try another smith or? and in the case of reloading them not to worry the re sizer will fix this. I reload dented cases all the time they may not look pretty but no harm. caution there will be........ purist......... that will tell you otherwise but all you need to do is read up on it in just about any reloading manual. now severely dented cases should be tossed.  good luck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2009 at 17:26
The case may be hitting the receiver opening as it is ejected. The HK G3/91's are notorious for denting the case as it is ejected and launched over the horizon. I have never had a problem with reloading those cases, either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlv2k5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2009 at 19:56
tahqua, I think you may be right. The more I look at it the more it seems that the cases are just being dinged against the breach area of the barrel as they are ejected. I hope this wont cause any longterm damage to the gun, as I said, its done this since I bought it new.
-Michael
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldtrader3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/31/2009 at 23:08
The ejector lip dimensions could be slightly out of specification and be causing the case to swing out of the action prematurely, before it hits the stop.  I am assuming that the case is hitting the action lip directly on axis with the extractor.  Your gunsmith may have been correct in his assessment.  There is a tolerance stackup with extractors and it's stop that may be the root of the problem.  Just a thought.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2009 at 09:25
I disagree with your gunsmith.  I don't see how it's possible that the case is dinging against the receiver.  The Sako 75 has a fixed blade ejector that emerges through a slot at the 6:00 position in the bolt face when the bolt is retracted all the way rearward.  The case does not start to swing outward through the action port until it contacts the ejector.  The ejector cannot contact the case until the bolt is almost all the way retracted to the rear.    At this point, the case is already well clear of the receiver. 
 
Oldtrader, I assume by "ejector lip," you mean "extractor lip."  The ejector is nothing but a thin, fixed blade.  I guess it's theoretically possible that the extractor claw radius could be out of spec, causing the case to pivot prematurely, however, even if this is the case, I highly doubt it would have enough mechanical leverage to slam the case against the receiver with sufficient force to bend the case mouth.
 
This is really puzzling.  Can you take a photo of the dented case so we know what we're looking at?  Since you don't have enough posts to post pics yet, send me a PM, I will give you an email address where you can send a pic, and I will be happy to post the pic for you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SD Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2009 at 11:26
Michael, does it do this with every round?  Reason for question is that you can manually eject a round softly or really cycle the bolt fast to get them to really fling out.  If you are getting this dent even if you gently cycle the bolt, it ain't because it is making contact with the receiver, brass is soft, but not that soft.  Would agree with Ted's line of thought as well due to the fixed ejector won't kick them out premature.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldtrader3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2009 at 13:44
I mispoke regarding the ejuector.  I meant extractor.  Another senior moment.  Please forgive me.  I was a really good engineer in real life untill I had a life threatening illness in 2003 with accompanying Hypoxia (loss of oxygen to the brain for an extented period).  This condition wiped out great portions of my short term and an unknown amount of permanent memory.  I have no way of knowing how much permanent loss because I can't remember.  I am telling this FYI only.  I have spent (6) years rewiring my brain circuits to overcome this handicap but they still fail me sometimes and I mispeak goofily. 
 
What I was trying to say is that the chamfer and lip of the extractor may be mishapen and be causing cases to move sideways before being ejected.  The other thing that is bothering me is the ejector.  The action needs to be cycled really slowly enough to see if this aberent movement is detectable in slower motion.  Could the ejector be too long, or the ejector stop be too far forward?
 
There are many questions about this problem that can not be assessed via email.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2009 at 21:06
the problem is obvious to me, its a .270
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SD Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/02/2009 at 10:48
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

the problem is obvious to me, its a .270


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlv2k5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/02/2009 at 10:56
So like any good ailment, I cant seem to recreate the bent case to help with a prognosis. I've trying by simply racking an empty case through the action but no luck...and of course I also seem to have thrown out every piece of prior evidence. Guess I will have to head to the range and try...I will keep yall posted. RifleDude, I will take a picture if I can get the gun to do its thing, and then sent it to you so you can post it for me. Thank you by the way. As an aside, how many posts are required before you are able to post pictures etc?
-Michael
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldtrader3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/02/2009 at 11:45
At least it sounds as though you may have eliminated the ejector length and stop location as possible causes.  Keep us posted on your next range trip.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/02/2009 at 12:53
Originally posted by mlv2k5 mlv2k5 wrote:

As an aside, how many posts are required before you are able to post pictures etc?
 
50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roy Finn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/02/2009 at 13:17
I agree with Ted here as I don't really see how it is possible for the ejector to be the cause of dents at the case mouth, especially since we are talking about a bolt action rifle here. I am thinking that if you are getting this same condition regardless of how fast or slow you operate the bolt, that perhaps you have a bad chamber???? Of course it would help to see a pic of the spent cases as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/02/2009 at 13:26
Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

The case may be hitting the receiver opening as it is ejected. The HK G3/91's are notorious for denting the case as it is ejected and launched over the horizon. I have never had a problem with reloading those cases, either.
This was my first thought as well. I'm thinking that a very strong ejector spring action is causing the case to hit the receiver during ejection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/02/2009 at 16:27
Originally posted by cyborg cyborg wrote:

I'm thinking that a very strong ejector spring action is causing the case to hit the receiver during ejection.
 
The Sako 75 doesn't have an ejector spring, or a button style ejector.  It isn't mounted in the bolt face like the plunger style ejector designs such as the Remington 700.  The ejector on this rifle is a fixed blade located at the rear end of the magazine well that doesn't even contact the case until it slides into the bolt face groove once the bolt is retracted all the way to the rear.  There is a groove in the bolt face that mates up with the ejector blade once the bolt is in the open, rearward position, allowing the ejector to slide into the groove and contact the case rim.  In other words, there's no possible way the ejector can have any influence on the case whatsoever until the bolt is all the way open.  By that time, the case has already cleared the ejection port.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/02/2009 at 16:31
Ah..... Got it. Well Hells bells. Something is rather strange indeed then.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/03/2009 at 19:29

mlv2k5 sent me these pictures and asked me to post them for him.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/03/2009 at 19:38
He said he repeatedly chambered a spent case to get these pictures, which doesn't duplicate the scenario he described in this thread as I understood it.  If this is how it's happening, this is the source of the problem.  My understanding from his posts was that the case mouth was getting bent on extraction from the chamber immediately after firing.  Obviously, repeatedly chambering a spent case without a bullet can easily dent the case mouth on the feed ramp and edge of the chamber during entry.  From the picture, you can see the case mouth is dented in multiple places, indicating the empty case was repeatedly cycled vigorously into the chamber and therefore it could not have occurred during extraction & ejection.




Edited by RifleDude - June/03/2009 at 19:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roy Finn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/03/2009 at 19:55
Something didn't sound right from the get go.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlv2k5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/03/2009 at 20:25
I realize that chambering and ejecting empty rounds doesn't really duplicate the scenario I described, but I thought it might help determine whether the problem was in the action or if it had something to do with actually firing the rifle which would appear to be a more serious problem. When I get a chance to go shoot (hopefully this weekend) I will post pictures of the results. What I can tell yall is that the pictures here are similar to what was been happening. The primary difference being in the severity and uniformity of the denting. For example, sometimes it would be very slight, similar to what is shown in these pictures except only on one side of the rim. In other instances though it would be very noticeable and much more significantly deformed. All of this deformation was due to simply chambering a live round, firing the round, then ejecting the empty cartridge. I don't typically try to fling the spent brass a country mile either, so I don't really eject the brass that forcefully. I have never really understood what was going on, but the firearm has functioned fine and the gunsmith I showed the bent shells to said it was simply a case of the ejector being very strong and pinging the shells against something I think. But, RifleDude stated that this doesn't seem possible because of the specific nature of the ejector so I really don't know.
-Michael
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roy Finn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/03/2009 at 21:25
Mike does this happen regardless of how fast or slow you cycle the bolt?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlv2k5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/03/2009 at 21:34
I havnt shot the rifle in a while so its hard for me to remember how exactly it would happen, but I typically work the bolt pretty lightly so I don't think its a matter of me slinging the bolt open to eject the shell.
-Michael
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rifle looney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/03/2009 at 21:49
after looking at this, I tried the same thing with my Sako and I cant make it do that ...IMO send it back for repair!  looks to me like a bad chamber?

Edited by rifle looney - June/03/2009 at 21:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sakomato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/03/2009 at 21:52
Could be a trim problem.  When I first started reloading I had a bad caliper and the cases got too long and would bump up against the neck stop in the leade and bulge the mouths, sometime unevenly.  
 
And that neck brass looks very thick.


Edited by sakomato - June/03/2009 at 21:54
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