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Deer Hunting Scope

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2018 at 12:48
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Originally posted by scoper scoper wrote:

i agree. i'm pretty much there. for my shorter range deer hunting purposes, i'm heavily leaning towards the leupold fx-ii 4x33. worst case in a couple of years it just isn't getting the job done and i'll look for something else, but this mistake won't have cost me too much.

though if there's an even better 4x fixed that i haven't considered... Evil Smile

i appreciate everyone's thoughts. i learned a lot through the process.



I would take a look at the IOR 4x. Has there versions with the only difference being the reticle. 




Edited by Chris Farris II - June/07/2018 at 11:03
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2018 at 12:50
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Originally posted by cbm cbm wrote:


It is always pretty interesting to read these threads and I always come away with a "wow" we all have different types of hunting. For our hunting here, I could not get by with a 4x or 6x scope. Our deer come in so late at times that the only way I can see them is cranking it up to 8x-10x or maybe 12x and the deer are only 85 -90 yrds away. On 4x, you can't even see them at all.



It could be that I misunderstood your original post, but here's what I read that made no sense to me.

Regardless of the light level, a deer 85-90 yards away at, say, 2.5x magnification would appear to be at 35-40 yards distance. No admittedly, I have very good vision, but with the naked eye and given low, yet sufficient light I could easily make out any relevant details atvthat distance and from my experience would never "dial up" the magnification as that will automatically reduce the brightness of the image.

I don't think that this depends on the scope brand or quality, with any scope I've used, when it gets too dark to resolve details at a given range, it gets worse when I dial the magnification.

Obviously as the light fades it does become more difficult to see at distance, but lower magnification has always brightened the image, while of course reducing the detail as I zoom out.

Maybe I'm wrong here, I'm not trying to give you a hard time and I've never hunted with an S&B scope but am aware of their reputation as the very best of the best.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2018 at 13:09
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Can't edot posts and I would like to clarify my last post.


I understand that scopes vary in low light ability obviously, and that:

scope A) might be able to zoom in to 8x in low light and provide a detailed and sufficiently bright image.

scope B) might need to be dialled down to 2.5 times to provide a sufficiently bright image.

Obviously, scope A in this scenario would allow a lot more detail to be observed at a given level of light (or lack thereof).

My confusion is to the statement that seems to say that when it's too dark to see enough detail with scope A, you can crank up the magnification and the detail will improve.


At 90 yards, if it's too dark to see sufficient detail using scope A at 2.5x due to the low light levels, (im other words, 2.5x is fine, but as the light fades it becomes useless) cranking that same scope up in magnification will definitely make yhings worse, since the problem isn't enough magnification, it's insufficient light.

Maybe we're saying the same thing two different ways, but whenever I've experienced fading light do the point where I can't resolve details any longer, increasing magnification has ALWAYS made things worse.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2018 at 13:58
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 I don't know, everyone that I hunt with uses lower powers until dark to take advantage of the FOV. Then starts adjusting them up to zoom in on something they want to shoot. It's just easier to get the scope on target or the general area on low power, and then go up from there.

 

 Guys I'm going to have to drop it. I can't shoot at my deer at 90 yrds in super low light on 2.5x but I can on 8x. I don't personally see how anyone could out of my stands but I can not see through their eyes, nor they through mine.

 

 

 

 

 

 



Edited by cbm - June/06/2018 at 14:23
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2018 at 14:43
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 I have to agree on the IOR 4X fixed, it is a great scope.  I have it on a 45-70 and love the scope (but hate the gun.)

For cbm and "your eyes vs my eyes", it isn't a problem.  When people say things that go against my experience, I usually point out my experience, which is what I did.  I'm not calling you or your gear out, only saying it deviates from my experiences and my gear.  


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2018 at 15:39
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Although increasing magnification decreases the exit pupil of a given scope and makes the image dimmer, it also increases detail, so there is always a balance between magnification and exit pupil as it pertains to low light performance. Up to a point, increasing magnification increases your ability to discern target detail in dim lighting even as the image gets continually dimmer/exit pupil gets smaller, until exit pupil gets small enough that the light loss to your eye is no longer sufficient for the magnification level. Given a 2.5-10x50 scope of excellent optical quality and optical system transmission %, you will see greater detail in low light at 9x with 5.5mm exit pupil than you will at 4x with 12.5mm exit pupil, for example...even though the latter is technically “brighter.” This relationship between magnification and exit pupil/effective objective lens diameter is referred to as an optic’s “twilight factor.” If you have a large enough objective lens such that you don’t go below around 4-5mm exit pupil diameter, increasing magnification improves your ability to discern detail on your target, even as the image is getting dimmer. This goes against commonly held belief that exit pupil and optical system transmission are the sole determining factors of low light performance. It ain’t all about “brightness.” 10x on a 50mm objective (5mm exit pupil) will thoroughly trounce 5x (10mm exit pupil) on the same scope in terms of resolving detail at moderate target distance in low light for most people, despite the huge exit pupil penalty. What you lose in light delivered to your eye is more than compensated by increased resolving power. Of course your eyesight acuity determines how much magnification can be dialed up before continuing to increase magnification no longer yields a corresponding increase in image detail.

Low light performance isn’t just an issue of “larger exit pupil is better.” It is a major oversimplification to just say that dialing up more magnification on a given optic always reduces your ability to see target detail in low light, as nothing could be further from the truth. Larger exit pupil at a given magnification does indeed improve low light performance, but increasing magnification while still maintaining a reasonably large enough exit pupil will often yield greater low light capability than merely chasing a “brighter” image. To your brain, greater image detail appears brighter.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2018 at 16:23
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Incidentally, before anyone brings it up, I’m not a proponent of the “twilight factor” concept as a blanket “more is always better” philosophy. Twilight factor alone is nearly meaningless because it fails to take into consideration the quality of the optical system, coatings efficiency etc. Nevertheless, the concept it attempts to describe is valid. That is, up to a certain point, increasing an optic’s magnification does improve the ability to resolve more detail in dim light. Again, that applies up to a certain point. At some point, continuing to increase magnification begins to have the opposite effect as the exit pupil diameter decreases enough that you are no longer gaining the benefit of increased resolution. The point being, in low light, turning magnification down is not a blanket prescription for improving your ability to “see better” or to precisely place a bulllet on target. Good low light performance involves having BOTH sufficiently large exit pupil and sufficient magnification on tap, conjoined with having excellent optics and coatings to begin with. If one wants the ultimate low light scope and values low light performance above all other attributes, he will be better served by both a larger objective and more magnification, provided top end magnification still provides somewhere in the neighborhood of 5mm-ish exit pupil.

In reality, most high end 42mm objective variable scopes with 8x-10x on the upper end will take you well past legal hunting hours dictated by law in most states, and on non-game species not governed by legal shooting hours, well beyond that. This also assumes a well designed reticle for the task, which may mean illumination.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2018 at 16:32
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No, no, no.

That is all.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2018 at 16:52
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Incidentally, before anyone brings it up, I’m not a proponent of the “twilight factor” concept as a blanket “more is always better” philosophy. Twilight factor alone is nearly meaningless because it fails to take into consideration the quality of the optical system, coatings efficiency etc. Nevertheless, the concept it attempts to describe is valid. That is, up to a certain point, increasing an optic’s magnification does improve the ability to resolve more detail in dim light. Again, that applies up to a certain point. At some point, continuing to increase magnification begins to have the opposite effect as the exit pupil diameter decreases enough that you are no longer gaining the benefit of increased resolution. The point being, in low light, turning magnification down is not a blanket prescription for improving your ability to “see better” or to precisely place a bulllet on target. Good low light performance involves having BOTH sufficiently large exit pupil and sufficient magnification on tap, conjoined with having excellent optics and coatings to begin with. If one wants the ultimate low light scope and values low light performance above all other attributes, he will be better served by both a larger objective and more magnification, provided top end magnification still provides somewhere in the neighborhood of 5mm-ish exit pupil.

In reality, most high end 42mm objective variable scopes with 8x-10x on the upper end will take you well past legal hunting hours dictated by law in most states, and on non-game species not governed by legal shooting hours, well beyond that. This also assumes a well designed reticle for the task, which may mean illumination.


My ERI 2.5-10 X 42 #4 gets the job done.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2018 at 17:10
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

No, no, no.

That is all.


Yes, yes, yes. I’ve tested this on numerous occasions. This is well-established fact. Don’t take my word for it. Setup an object at about 100 yards, view at at last light with something like a 2.5-10x50 or 3-12x56 high end scope, run the magnification up and down and see for yourself which magnification helps you resolve the greatest detail in dim light. Large exit pupil alone does not improve low light performance. Large exit pupil in concert with good optics and higher resolution is the ticket for best low light performance.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2018 at 17:13
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Originally posted by Sakoshooter Sakoshooter wrote:

Can't edot posts and I would like to clarify my last post.








Just a FYI you need 50 posts before you can edit your posts.

Your almost half way there!Smile
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2018 at 17:33
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For some a large exit pupil is not useful in the real world. Since the max diameter a healthy eye will dilate is somewhere around 7 or 8 I think. I can't remember right now and I am sure someone will have the correct number. And as one ages that number decreases. If your eyes can't dilate to make use of the large exit pupil then it is essentially wasted.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2018 at 17:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2018 at 17:58
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....What Ted said. My observations exactly. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2018 at 19:23
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An analogy...
Walk outside in waning light equivalent to the final minutes of legal big game hunting hours. Locate an object at moderate distance away from you, say 100 yards for the sake of discussion. Shine a flashlight on the object. You can of course see greater detail of the object, which has now been illuminated or is "brighter." Now turn the flashlight off and walk much closer to the object, say 10 - 15 yards away from it. Even without the aid of the flashlight, you can often see greater detail of the object in spite of the fact it is "dimmer" because you are seeing it with greater resolution (at greater magnification, if you will). The degree to which you can resolve greater detail at closer range of course depends on the size, color, and texture of the object being observed and the available light level. 

The point is, the blanket suggestion that turning down the power to gain a larger exit pupil by itself always improves an optic's low light utility is simply false. "Brightness" isn't the only attribute contributing to optimal low light performance. Detail acuity is also important. Increasing magnification improves detail resolution in any light, as long as detrimental optical aberrations aren't revealed as a result of doing so. Provided that the optic's resulting exit pupil diameter still remains larger than or close to the viewer's eye pupil diameter after increasing magnification, the magnification increase improves the viewer's ability to resolve detail in low light, the same as in good light. At some point, further increasing magnification of course causes low light performance to take a nose dive as the exit pupil starts becoming so small that light reaching the eye is significantly reduced.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2018 at 20:45
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:



The point is, the blanket suggestion that turning down the power to gain a larger exit pupil by itself always improves an optic's low light utility is simply false. "Brightness" isn't the only attribute contributing to optimal low light performance. Detail acuity is also important. Increasing magnification improves detail resolution in any light, as long as detrimental optical aberrations aren't revealed as a result of doing so. Provided that the optic's resulting exit pupil diameter still remains larger than or close to the viewer's eye pupil diameter after increasing magnification, the magnification increase improves the viewer's ability to resolve detail in low light, the same as in good light. At some point, further increasing magnification of course causes low light performance to take a nose dive as the exit pupil starts becoming so small that light reaching the eye is significantly reduced.


Absolutely. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2018 at 20:54
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My eyes and ego tell me Ted is wrong.
Wrong wrong wrong.

Probably wrong:

Maybe wrong.

In truth, I agree - to a point: much like 4K TVs with the brightness turned way down: you can have a super hi-res image - but with not enough light to resolve. I understand your point.
My experience: when need of light is the greatest limiter, increased magnification makes a bad problem worse.

Then again, now I just clip on a 3+ and keep right on shooting!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2018 at 22:46
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

 
My experience: when need of light is the greatest limiter, increased magnification makes a bad problem worse.


But that's a sweeping generalization without qualifications, as it depends entirely on the amount of magnification increase, the optic's effective objective diameter, and the optical quality and coatings effectiveness.

The point remains, a variable rifle scope's best low light performance is never at lowest magnification, unless said scope has an unusually high base magnification and an unusually small objective size relative to magnification. Good low light performance is about being able to see the greatest detail in the available lighting, enabling precision bullet placement...and that doesn't always mean the "brightest" image. A bright image with low resolution is less useful to precision shot placement than a more detailed yet dimmer image, as long as you can clearly see details on your target to begin with. Increasing magnification increases an optic's dim light utility up to the point that the resulting exit pupil size is still larger than or roughly equivalent to the shooter's dilated eye pupil. Beyond that, as the optic's exit pupil becomes progressively smaller, more magnification begins to decrease low light utility.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2018 at 23:12
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I've tested this with 5 different scopes, that I can think of. 20mm, 32, 38, and 50mm objectives. Tests were done at sundown, sitting in dark shadow, looking at a target that is in shadows. I'm not far from the Canadian border, in a mountain valley, so twilight lasts a while. There is plenty of time for my pupils to dilate and my night vision to kick in.

I can look through a scope that is set at its lowest magnification (1.5, 2, or 3X) until it's too dark to see the target. I can then turn the magnification up, and I can again clearly see the target. When it gets too dark at that setting, I can turn the power up again, and see the target again.

For me, the target is visible latest when the exit pupil of the scope is between 5.5mm and 6mm. This is true for every scope I've tested. My 50mm scope lets me see the target latest when it is set at 8.5X.

At 2X, 3X, or 4X, my 32mm and 50mm scopes are equal in low light performance. With the 50 mm scope set at 8.5X, I can see the target a lot longer (at sundown, as it gets darker) than I can see it with my 32mm scope set at any power.

Like I said, I have done this more than a couple times. There is no question that this is how it works, with my eyes, and my scopes, in my own back yard.



Edited by Shenko - June/06/2018 at 23:17
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2018 at 00:33
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:


Probably wrong

                                                             
,                                                                        .                       






Never!




The issue as I see it is that "last light" for many scopes is sometimes more than a few minutes before "last light" through something like my diavari at 2.5 power.  When it's pretty much dark, I'm still seeing things at 2.5 power, while 6, 8, or 10 power are done for.  

Again, this is not when my buddy with his vx3 is saying that it's dark.  It's when it's so dark that you can not discern an object by looking directly at it with the naked eye. 





Edited by probably - June/07/2018 at 00:47
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2018 at 00:46
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Any decent scope will get you long past the point where "it's so dark that you can not discern an object by looking directly at it with the naked eye."
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2018 at 06:15
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Did you guys read the info in the link I posted about 8 posts up?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2018 at 06:33
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Originally posted by probably probably wrote:

Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:


Probably wrong

                                                             
,                                                                        .                       






Never!




The issue as I see it is that "last light" for many scopes is sometimes more than a few minutes before "last light" through something like my diavari at 2.5 power.  When it's pretty much dark, I'm still seeing things at 2.5 power, while 6, 8, or 10 power are done for.  

Again, this is not when my buddy with his vx3 is saying that it's dark.  It's when it's so dark that you can not discern an object by looking directly at it with the naked eye. 










I have 3 Diavari 2.5-10x50s. My Diavaris obviously work differently than yours.

Instead of thinking about generally “seeing things” at a given power, instead think about actually putting a bullet on a precise spot on target at moderate distance. There will likely be a point somewhere in your zoom range where a little more magnification trumps “brightness” in your ability to accomplish the goal your scope was designed for - putting bullets on target. This “sweet spot” where you obtain the optimal balance between perceived brightness and more detail won’t be at lowest magnification unless you have very unusual eyesight. Of course, eventually you run out of light altogether and it becomes too dark for your scope to be useful at any magnification.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2018 at 06:47
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Originally posted by Shenko Shenko wrote:


For me, the target is visible latest when the exit pupil of the scope is between 5.5mm and 6mm. This is true for every scope I've tested. My 50mm scope lets me see the target latest when it is set at 8.5X.



Mirrors my observations too.

Yet despite that, I still prefer 36-42mm objective scopes on most of my BG hunting rifles just due to my preference toward keeping things tidy.
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There is little practical difference between a high quality 42mm hunting scope and a high quality 50mm scope in the field, at least IME.   Having a usable reticle is much more important in very poor light.  
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