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Different Readings.

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    Posted: October/07/2019 at 11:03
Hi Guys
I have 2 scopes from the same manufacture.  When mounting them on the same gun with the same 1 piece mount. I am getting a horizontal zero/grouping difference of 2 Mils between the 2 scopes at 50m's. The top rings are torqued down and have the same space either side. On mounting I just undo the top rings and drop the scopes into position. Nothing else is moved. 1 scope has perfect optical and mechanical zero and the other only out optical by .3 mils to it's mechanical zero.
I have repeated this twice with the same results.
Does anyone know why or how there can be the 2 mils difference. Both scopes are First Focal Plane.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/07/2019 at 12:29
I'm not sure I see why it matters, can you elucidate?

Are you saying when zeroed on the same gun with the same hardware, both scopes differ from their mechanical zero by 2 mils?

Comparing absolutes between 2 mechanical devices is difficult. If both scopes hold zero and both scopes track true, why does it matter if they are both at different spots in their mechanical range?

This is why scopes have adjustments, because few things are absolute in the system, and they have to reliably adjust to point of impact.

That they are from the same manufacturer doesn't really matter. In fact, they could be exact same model from same manufacturer and it still wouldn't matter. What matters, in my opinion, is what each scope does when mounted to the rifle: does it track, does it hold zero.

The adjustment limits aren't meant to be quantitative in most meaningful ways, just the adjustments themselves. Everything has a tolerance, and I think you are measuring something they didn't expect you to measure.

If they both shoot true, you are welcome to spend time trying to understand the "why", but it'll be purely academic.

If one or both does not track or hold zero, the conversation is very different.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/07/2019 at 14:10
Hello Rancid Coolaid 
Thank you for your time in answering my question.

Both scopes hold zero however
Scope 1 has a total adjustment of 18.6 mils which is 3.6 mils more than its quoted specification of 15 mils. However it is spot on for the optical and mechanical zero. To zero it with the rifle I have to come 4.9 mils to the left which eats up half of the adjustment.
Scope 2 has a total of 15 mils adjustment which is its quoted specification. Optical zero is .3 mils right of mechanical zero. To zero the rifle I have to come 2.9 mils left which eats up 1/3 of its adjustment.
Scope 1 is the scope I wish to pair with this rifle and shoot it out to 1100 yards. Scope 2 is going on a slightly better rifle. I was trying to understand why I had such a large error on the 1st scope and why an extra 2 mils compared with the second scope.
I have high end scopes and high end mount so would have thought they would have been the same. I am trying to understand why I am getting the figures I have. 
It may be that I am concerned about nothing but I am new to the workings of scopes and just thought that 4.9 mils was a large amount. Especially when that works out at 24.5 cm's at 50m's or 4.9 m's at 1000m's from where the bore of the rifle is pointing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/07/2019 at 14:48
What are the scopes?

It is not uncommon to have a difference between scopes and it can come down to a variety of different things.  Usually, it is some sort of a ring misalignment that effects the two scope tubes differently, but not necessarily.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/07/2019 at 14:49
Also, what gun is this on and what type of base/ring arrangement are you using?

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/07/2019 at 15:48
Hi Koshkin
 Scopes are IOR Recon and Crusader and fitted to Tikka T3 Tac A1 with a solid 1 piece 20 MOA mount.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/07/2019 at 15:49
I think I can rule out misalignment.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/07/2019 at 16:36
A 20 MOA base is about 6 mils, so anything going on that base should get you back most of that 6 mils. That should be calculated into your deviation from scope's middle adjustment point, though - again - I'm still not sure it matters much.

Tikka makes a good gun, what caliber?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/07/2019 at 22:14
Originally posted by Tik Tik wrote:

Hi Koshkin
 Scopes are IOR Recon and Crusader and fitted to Tikka T3 Tac A1 with a solid 1 piece 20 MOA mount.

IOR's are not known for manufacturing consistency.  I stopped testing IORs quite a while back partly because of that inconsistency: I can't make recommendations if I do not have faith in repeatability of the product.

Given what you are trying to do, you are expecting too much from your scopes.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2019 at 00:28
you got that right. I had a 3-18x IOR and when zeroed i had 3ish mils left on the right side.  Had i cranked way over to get that zero   I called valdada and they let me return it. The sent me a replacement, same model. It was much closer to the mechanical zero when zeroed. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2019 at 04:09
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

A 20 MOA base is about 6 mils, so anything going on that base should get you back most of that 6 mils. That should be calculated into your deviation from scope's middle adjustment point, though - again - I'm still not sure it matters much.

Tikka makes a good gun, what caliber?

How does the vertical 20MOA affect the horizontal? Gun is in 6.5 Creedmoor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2019 at 04:11
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

you got that right. I had a 3-18x IOR and when zeroed i had 3ish mils left on the right side.  Had i cranked way over to get that zero   I called valdada and they let me return it. The sent me a replacement, same model. It was much closer to the mechanical zero when zeroed. 

Did they offer an explanation and how close was the second.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2019 at 06:34
Sorry, I reread the second post and saw you were talking about windage adjustment. You are correct, the 20MOA base gets you no windage back.

Your rifle and caliber are solid, IOR has a long and troubled past with scope quality.

If they hold zero and track true, you have to decide if the windage issue is enough to make you move to another brand. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2019 at 06:42
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Sorry, I reread the second post and saw you were talking about windage adjustment. You are correct, the 20MOA base gets you no windage back.

Your rifle and caliber are solid, IOR has a long and troubled past with scope quality.

If they hold zero and track true, you have to decide if the windage issue is enough to make you move to another brand. 
Yes they track true and hold zero. I am just trying to get to the reason for difference. Not really wanting to change scopes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2019 at 09:05
As Koshkin said, it could be many different things, and further complicated by the brand being known for inconsistency.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2019 at 09:11
No explanation.  This was over 10 years ago, so I don't recall exactly where is was, I just remember is was much closer to the middle. 


I have never been one to worry or care how close a scope is to the mechanical zero.  As long as I have enough adjustment to compensate for the type of shooting I am doing with that rifle/scope combo there is really no need to care.  Some people go to all the trouble to set their scopes to the mechanical zero before mounting them.  Why.  There is only a small chance it will stay at that mechanical zero.  They are not meant to, that is why there are adjustments.  There is just no reason to worry about it unless it is affecting your shooting. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2019 at 10:38
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

As Koshkin said, it could be many different things, and further complicated by the brand being known for inconsistency.

Don't take this the wrong way and I am valuing your input.
I hear a lot of people stating that IOR scopes are inconsistent or rubbish. However they generally don't back this up with fact. Nearly all the comments come from America and not Europe. Yes there is 1 or 2 but that is the same with S&B, Vortex etc. But it seems that it's always someone they know and not the person who owns the scope. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2019 at 10:41
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

No explanation.  This was over 10 years ago, so I don't recall exactly where is was, I just remember is was much closer to the middle. 


I have never been one to worry or care how close a scope is to the mechanical zero.  As long as I have enough adjustment to compensate for the type of shooting I am doing with that rifle/scope combo there is really no need to care.  Some people go to all the trouble to set their scopes to the mechanical zero before mounting them.  Why.  There is only a small chance it will stay at that mechanical zero.  They are not meant to, that is why there are adjustments.  There is just no reason to worry about it unless it is affecting your shooting. 


Thanks and I think you are probably right and I am only caring about it from a perceived shooting of a 90 degree 25 mph wind at 1100 yards. Which is probably not likely but you never know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2019 at 11:17
If you shoot on that day with that gun in those conditions, the scope will only be a minor player in a very dramatic play.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2019 at 11:33
Adjust for drop, hold for wind with the reticle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2019 at 21:27
With a .308 at 1100 with a full value 25mph wind you would need about 6.5 mils. Your scopes will still be just fine even with the 2 mil difference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3_tens Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2019 at 09:10
You may need to remount everything to idenify where the issue is actually located. It could be that the mount is misaligned by only 1 mil and that each scope is only off by one mil. in opposite directions. You have not identified how you have verified exactly where the problem exist. Making the assumption that the first scope mounting is correct could be the problem. If the second scope is for another rifle, Mounting on that rifle may correct the assumed problem.  If you are having problems with an IOR Optic, or if it's not meeting your expectations you should contact IOR to see if they will warranty the issue. I am fairly sure that they will want to know the steps you used to verify the location of the problem so they can duplicate the issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2019 at 10:00
Originally posted by Tik Tik wrote:

Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

As Koshkin said, it could be many different things, and further complicated by the brand being known for inconsistency.


Don't take this the wrong way and I am valuing your input.
I hear a lot of people stating that IOR scopes are inconsistent or rubbish. However they generally don't back this up with fact. Nearly all the comments come from America and not Europe. Yes there is 1 or 2 but that is the same with S&B, Vortex etc. But it seems that it's always someone they know and not the person who owns the scope. 




I'm not sure how I missed it, but I missed it.

And to be sure I understand it: you, an IOR optics owner, are seeing a strange thing in your scopes that causes you to wonder if they are functioning properly. Simultaneously, you are chiding me for saying IOR has a well-earned bad reputation for optics and customer service. Is that the correct context?

I've owned several IORs including the gen1 Sniper's Hide 3-18 - of which the entire batch failed due to a faulty metal component. All were replaced (I think, mine was) but replacements also had a high failure rate, and getting them took a bit of time.
I have owned several IORs, a few had issues, customer service was generally non-existent; and when issues were addressed, it was always solved by shipping a new scope from eastern Europe. I had enough failures and CS issues that I stopped buying IOR scopes.

These are my experiences, from my IOR optics. Some people still own them and love them, great; my experiences were far less than positive.

In contrast, I have also had a few issues that had to be addressed by Vortex, Swaro, Leica, Zeiss, and Bushnell; all were orders of magnitude better experiences than with IOR.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2019 at 10:03
I missed that too. I personally went through 4 or 5 3-18x’s before i got one that performed properly or didnt fail. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2019 at 11:01
Guys it was not a personnel rebuff on either of you. So I apologise if it sounded that way. Where your experiences in the last 2 years and where they on the 40mm tubes. If the older models suffered with problems is it reasonable to judge the rest by that experience.  I spent a long time looking up what scope to purchase and found that the scopes were generally held in high regards. I did not find any negative reviews in relation to the Crusader and Recon. Customer service now that may be a different matter.
The problem that I am trying to get to the bottom of may have nothing to do with scopes and more to do with something that doesn't really exist. Alternately it could be a compounded error between rail and gun. I just don't know which it is.


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