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"Seals" brand scopes ?

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Category: Scopes
Forum Name: Rifle Scopes
Forum Description: Centerfire long gun scopes
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=12113
Printed Date: October/17/2018 at 10:57
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Topic: "Seals" brand scopes ?
Posted By: spystyle
Subject: "Seals" brand scopes ?
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 10:02
Hello from Maine,

Has anyone ever heard of "Seals" brand scopes? The seller for them on eBay insists that they are comparable to NightForce optics and gives a 5 day inspection, furthermore offers to pay the return shipping if the scope doesn't knock your socks off, if that wasn't enough they are also allegedly made in Japan :

http://tinyurl.com/5oomye

I seems suspicious ....

Has anyone ever tried one?

Thanks,
Craig



Replies:
Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 10:03
oops, that link isn't clickable

http://tinyurl.com/5oomye - http://tinyurl.com/5oomye


Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 10:06
Am I screwy? I can't find the "edit" button ...


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 10:39
Anyone that says a $200 to $300 is as good as a Nightforce I would definitely take with a grain of Salt.  There is a reason good scopes cost so much.  If you go into expecting it to be a $200 scope then you will probably be fine, but if you go into expecting it to be as good as a $1500 scope you will be sorely disappointed.


Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 11:12
That's the voice of common sense and reason :)


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 11:44
That just because I have about 6 or those totally awesome scopes that are claimed to be as good as a $1000 plus scope, and it turned out they are not.  So now they are sitting on a shelf collecting dust.


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 12:30

Whatever



-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 12:34
Chicom crap, I think.

ILya


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http://www.opticsthoughts.com - www.opticsthoughts.com
http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
The greatest obstacle to discovery is the illusion of knowledge


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 12:47
I would be very leary of those that make claims like as good or better than such and such. Never has been true when you are dealing with a low cost product. They are rarely as good as a scope that can be bought for the same amount with less bells and whistles.
Check out the Bushnell 3-9 40 here for example, and the SuperSniper, Nikon Team Primos. The asking price for these makes them huge value for the invested duckage.


-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 12:53
I saw one at a show, guy tried to tell me something similar.  I looked at it, not like Nightforce. 

It is definitely Chinese and definitely geared toward the tacticool market.  If you want a good scope, don't buy this.  If you want a scope that looks bad-ass, this is OK; but someone who knows optics is gonna tell you it sucks.

Not trying to be an ass, but this is a crap scope.  You get what you pay for.  If you want "Nightforce-like", you aren't gonna get it for under $1,000 - even then, it's tough.

Skip it, buy the real deal, or let us know what you need and want and we can help point you toward good glass.  Avoid this thing like the plague.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 13:05
What I really want is a 40X scope with a 300mm objective lens and mil-dots... but I would not admit it in a public forum.

Rather than making the above, I am looking at finding a used 36X scope for about 3 big ones.

As for the "Seals" scope. Normally I would not think anything of an outrageous claim like "this is same as 1000 dollar scope, me love you long time" however the seller gives a money back guarantee and is willing to pay return shipping, that caught my attention. So I asked here and kinda expected someone to say "those are relabeled Konus scopes" or some such. I could not find any info about "Seals" scopes via Google.

Have fun :)
CRaig


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 13:07
For what do you need 36X?

-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 13:13
As a general rule, the more power you have the better glass you need to be able to see decent.  Also even with good glass at that kind of power you will get into all kinds of issues that will affect image quality.

I have a 18x IOR scope which has real nice glass and I don't even use it at 18x very often because of mirage and exit pupil and the added shake it adds.  36x would be crazy.

You will not find a scope that is usable at 36x for $300.  Even a $1500 scope 36x would be questionable for use IMO.


Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 13:34
Aha... That is something to keep in mind. I've seen mirage through my spotting scope...

To answer the question of "what for", benchrest shooting, like these scopes :

http://www.6mmbr.com/optics.html

I like to shoot brass cases of the berm with my super accurate Savage 22lr

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aVjvQUS">

It's fun but I can hardly see the targets, they are small!!!

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aVx9DO9">

I get a kick out of it, they fly off. I really like reactive targets. Shooting holes into stickers and measuring the groups with a caliper gets boring.

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxD1y20">

I don't hunt so "field of view" and all that does not concern me. Also recoil would not be a concern in this case. I think I need a spotting scope with crosshairs Clown

You mentioned "exit pupil", that's why I would make one with a 300mm objective. A 40X scope with a 300mm objective lens would be very bright. Similar to looking through a 4x32 scope.

Cheers,
Craig


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 13:43
Take a look at Weaver scopes.  http://www.swfa.com/c-254-weaver-t-series-rifle-scopes.aspx - http://www.swfa.com/c-254-weaver-t-series-rifle-scopes.aspx   While I am not a big fan of that high of a power for your intended us one of these might work.  Not to far out of your budget range either.  They have very fine crosshairs and 1/8 MOA adjustments.  Might be just what you need.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 13:47
If you want a reasonably well priced target scope, try one of Sightron's new 36x42 or 24x42 SII Big Sky target scopes.  Very nice optics and great adjustments.

ILya


-------------
http://www.opticsthoughts.com - www.opticsthoughts.com
http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
The greatest obstacle to discovery is the illusion of knowledge


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 16:03
Spy, what is your fascination with these types of cheap, Chicom scopes??
 


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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 16:15
I guess I always hope an underdog will trump the high priced scopes and save the day ... I must be a very optimistic dreamer!

Cheers,
Craig


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 16:33
Originally posted by spystyle spystyle wrote:

I guess I always hope an underdog will trump the high priced scopes and save the day ... I must be a very optimistic dreamer!

Cheers,
Craig
 
Having personally read most of your posts over the last year and a half, I would say your "optimism" is borderline delusional. Smile
 
EDITED for niceness.......Wink 


-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: 3_tens
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 20:22
Slightly off subject but a good comparison. Quality glass always trumps power.  I am currently doing a test drive on the Vortex Razor Binoculars and this point is so spectacularly obvious. I have some Nikon Action Extreme 10X50 that I thought were pretty good binoculars. The 8 power razors let you see so much more clearly. Details that could never be seen with my Nikon's are clearly visible. Looking at Jupiter I could see 3 of the moons. None were visible in the Nikon's. Sure you say you are comparing $175 Bins to $750 bins they should be better. The 25% more power in the Nikon's was blown so far away with the clarity of the Razors it can only be seen to be believed. Good glass beats power. Thank you SWFA 

-------------
Folks ain't got a sense of humor no more. They don't laugh they just get sore.

Need to follow the rules. Just hard to determine which set of rules to follow
Now the rules have changed again.


Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 20:24
I'm 31 and a dad! My daughter gives me h3ll when I use the "N" word. (that word ends with an "O" and is not to be confused with the other "N" word) :)

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV19L09i">

So no need to edit your posts, feel free to give me the h3ll I deserve, I'm used to it.

Just don't tease me for wanting to invent a 40X300mm scope, OK? A man has to have a dream!

As for this "China fixation" - technically said ad claims said scope was "made in Japan" so I'm off the hook this once :) Nice! Also, I work as a computer tech so I am surrounded by Chinese parts all the time, I order things directly from China very frequently. I also fix violins for my daughter and her friends. Some of the Chinese violins play just as well as the higher pedigree Romanian violins... And if that wasn't enough, I am crazy for Chinese the women at the local restaurant. All this has me "turning Chinese" and hopeful that they'll make a big scope I like on the cheap! Unfortunately they tend to "copy" more than they "innovate" - I was in talks with one Chinese scope manufacturer and they didn't like my giant scope idea (but they do make a Leupold clone).

There ya have it, my delusions are explained :)

Cheers,
Craig





Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 20:36
Cute kid.
 
 


-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 22:34
OK, following Koshkins advice I've decided to buy a Big Sky 36X. If I am not able to shoot the wings off of flys with that I will shoot elephants using iron sights instead.

Sadly, I guess I'll never know if a "Seals" scope really is good enough for Navy Seals :)

Happy shooting,
Craig



Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: July/29/2008 at 23:50
Why didnt you say so - here is a link to what the Navy Seals actually use and one of the Super Sniper scopes is a 20x42  and I think it would do nicely for what you are wanting.
http://www.swfa.com/c-231-super-sniper-rifle-scopes.aspx - http://www.swfa.com/c-231-super-sniper-rifle-scopes.aspx
http://www.swfa.com/pc-4307-231-super-sniper-20x42-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx - SS20X42 http://www.swfa.com/pc-4307-231-super-sniper-20x42-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx">Super%20Sniper%2020x42%2030mm%20Rifle%20Scope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 Super Sniper 20x42 30mm Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • Mil-Dot
  • 30mm
  • Rear Focus
  • OK for .50 cal
SWFA: $299.95
http://www.swfa.com/pc-4307-231-super-sniper-20x42-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx">More%20Info... http://www.swfa.com/addtocart.aspx?returnurl=showcategory.aspx&productid=4307&variantid=4284">Buy%20Now


-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: July/30/2008 at 08:28
I wonder how the Big Sky 36X scope would look compared to a Super Sniper 20X scope? It's too bad there isn't a technology to look through the scopes and compare via the internet. Like a high res camera that mounts behind the scopes ...

Have any of you guys looked through both?

Aren't Super Snipers made in China? I thought this site was a support group to help me quit Chinese optics? I'm so confused anymore...

It's tempting, I see the SS 20X for $279... But the Big Sky 36X is $350 ... These are tough decisions.

Cheers,
Craig


    


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: July/30/2008 at 08:30
It shouldn't be too hard to find out if the scope has a government contract (as it would if it were an actual SEAL scope.)  Since the gubmint has deep pockets, I seriously doubt SEALS would use this crap, since they can afford the very best.

Good luck with the new scope, it's gonna be big on a .22LR.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Chris Farris II
Date Posted: July/30/2008 at 09:20
Originally posted by spystyle spystyle wrote:

I wonder how the Big Sky 36X scope would look compared to a Super Sniper 20X scope? It's too bad there isn't a technology to look through the scopes and compare via the internet. Like a high res camera that mounts behind the scopes ...

Have any of you guys looked through both?

Aren't Super Snipers made in China? I thought this site was a support group to help me quit Chinese optics? I'm so confused anymore...

It's tempting, I see the SS 20X for $279... But the Big Sky 36X is $350 ... These are tough decisions.

Cheers,
Craig


    
The Super Sniper is made in Japan. What ranges do you plan on shooting out to?

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One day your life will flash before your eyes; Make sure it's worth watching.


Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: July/30/2008 at 09:51
Well I have been reading that actual snipers use Savage 22lr's as trainers. They can shoot turkeys at 300 yards.

http://tinyurl.com/22lr-at-300-yards - http://tinyurl.com/22lr-at-300-yards

I have the same Savage action in my little 22 but a different stock and barrel. My range is only 100 yards deep. But I hope to find deeper ranges in the future. I am a very busy person and don't get to go shooting often :(

I have a Savage police sniper rifle, an M16A1 Israeli police sniper rig, and an AR15 varminter. I'd like to try these at 300 and 500 yards.

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq1yMUar">

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gx1jPFZr">

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV1bYODJ">

(those are nice guns but I need good optics, except for the M16 scope which is a real Israeli police sniper scope)

With the price of ammo going up so much I have started to find more love for the 22lr.

Not to mention I have not procured a deep range yet.

So, I plan on shooting 25, 50 and 100 yards at my current range. But hopefully farther out in the future.

For practice I shoot very small things at 100 yards or less.

Cheers,
Craig



Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: July/30/2008 at 21:16
Yikes! I got outbid on the 36X Big Sky... Now I am looking at a "Millett LRS" refurb. I dislike my "Millett Silver Buck" but it may just be defective. I hear good things about the LRS and I like that is it gigantic :) 56mm objective, 35mm tube. It's big one! I was thinking of the SS 20X but it never gets discounted more than $20 off and it only has a 42mm objective. The LRS I am looking at is discounted to $300 which is like $150 off.

We'll see how it goes.

Have any of you compared to LRS to anything in the $300 range?

Cheers,
Craig


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: July/30/2008 at 21:29
The Millett Buck Gold (LRS, TRS) are decent scopes especially for the money. I would caution you to buy from a reputable dealer, there are fakes out there. The Buck Silver is not a very good scope, so don't use that for a comparison.

-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: July/30/2008 at 21:48
Yeah, the "buck silver" I have is actually not as good as the counterfeit Chinese scopes I have. I can not shoot with a light behind me, it will reflect in the ocular lens and make it difficult to see! I need to go into a shady area or wear a blanket or something (not that I have a range blanket, but I should for this scope).

Though I wonder if the scope I have is defective and maybe missing an anti-glare coating on the ocular lens. I should probably send it in.

Cheers,
Craig




Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: July/31/2008 at 19:27
OK, y'all are going to be proud! I've decided to buy the SS20X42 :)

The Millett blem was delayed and the Nikon doesn't focus down to 25 so I went with the Super Sniper. I have joined the club :)

Cheers,
Craig


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: July/31/2008 at 19:28
Originally posted by spystyle spystyle wrote:

OK, y'all are going to be proud! I've decided to buy the SS20X42 :)

The Millett blem was delayed and the Nikon doesn't focus down to 25 so I went with the Super Sniper. I have joined the club :)

Cheers,
Craig
 


-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: August/01/2008 at 11:24
Originally posted by spystyle spystyle wrote:

Well I have been reading that actual snipers use Savage 22lr's as trainers. They can shoot turkeys at 300 yards.

http://tinyurl.com/22lr-at-300-yards - http://tinyurl.com/22lr-at-300-yards



Be wary of the "actual snipers" and with what they train.  (Many on Sniper's Hide are actual snipers, military or law enforcement, many - like the writer of that post - are shooters in competitive precision-rifle matches: the 2 are not the same.)

I know it is a question of nomenclature, but a sniper is an individual who has qualified by some organization, to carry the title. 

Now, shooting allot is good; anything that gives you more trigger time is a good investment.  The guy's point was that it is cheaper to train with a .22 than with a .308 - and a good point it is; however, he is not saying the 2 platforms are interchangeable. 

And don't assume that whatever some guy is using, whehter he claims to be a sniper or not, is a good thing and you too should use it.


Case in point:



And:


Good luck with the new SS20X42.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: August/01/2008 at 11:30
EGADS RC!!!!!!!Eek

-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: August/01/2008 at 13:01
I am glad that I use FireFox web browser and AdBlock Plus plugin (both free) I was able to right click that picture and block it permanently.

http://www.getfirefox.com - http://www.getfirefox.com

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/1865 - https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/1865

Here is a more pleasant image  :

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq1C_wDS">

Teach kids to snipe :)

Cheers,
Craig


Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: August/07/2008 at 21:04
Alright, my SS20X42 came in today. It took about 6 days to get to Maine. Shipping was high at $12 for UPS ground. The scope itself is very cool! Tactical enough for any sniper enthusiast. The glass seemed really nice in the limited amount of time I had it in daylight (the scope arrived in the late evening).

The eye relief was amazing, the mildots were great. The turrets are huge (which I like). All adjustment knobs turned smoothly.

I was disappointed the scope didn't come with any type of dust covers for the lenses. All my other scopes came with those cheap but effective bikini covers.

Unfortunately the top turret has no audible clicks like the side turret. I would have thought that SWFA would take one minute to inspect it's flagship brand of scopes before mailing them off.... *sigh*

Here it is on my Savage 22lr

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV1M0z00">

I look forward to taking it to the range, unfortunately I have a "schedule" and all that grown-up business to tend to... But I should have time Monday.

Cheers,
Craig


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: August/08/2008 at 06:09
Shoot Stephanie or someone at SWFA a pm concerning the clicks. It may be something that they are not aware of. Then again it might be grease or something causing it. Either way they'd like to know.

-------------
With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: August/08/2008 at 09:21
OK, I have sent owner Chris a PM

Coincidentally, it is raining and dreary today so I can't really draw a conclusion as to the clarity of the SS20X42, but I am able to clearing see the box fan in a window 200 yards from my window.

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gx20Xlu0">

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV1O3ZZ0">

I have a hard time getting a picture of "through the scope"

So far it looks like it will make a great scope for shooting at very small things on sunny days.

Cheers,
Craig


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: August/08/2008 at 09:27
It may be a "new scope" issue more than a problem.  Did you spend some time running up and down the elevation range of the turret?

If, after some running through the elevation turret, you don't hear clicks, it is an issue that needs to be addressed.  And Chris stands behind his stuff.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: August/08/2008 at 09:50
I'll try that, this is my first "expensive" scope so I am still learning the proper routine.  


Posted By: spystyle
Date Posted: August/08/2008 at 16:21
Well turning the turret repeatedly did not solve the problem. But SWFA is sending another scope :)

I give SWFA two thumbs up !

Thanks SWFA, my buying experience has been a good one :)

Cheers,
Craig


Posted By: mercenary1947
Date Posted: August/08/2008 at 18:03
Originally posted by spystyle spystyle wrote:


I was disappointed the scope didn't come with any type of dust covers for the lenses. All my other scopes came with those cheap but effective bikini covers.
Cheers,
Craig
 
 I've never got any kind of descent covers with new scopes .. what brand gave you bikini covers ?  Love those mil-dots ! Have been waiting forever for a variable super sniper .... looks like it's never gonna happen ... Whatever .  Can't beat SWFA ... have a feeling we're gonna see alot more of you ! They really don't have time to test EVERY scope .... they could be tested a bit and still the next use they could go wrong . Fell lucky you bought from folks who care and provide superior service ... as you probably already do .


-------------
One Shot One Kill .... *S.O.F * Head Shots Only
               SWFAM


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: September/18/2009 at 18:02
I had the supplier send me one for review.  After the first few minutes of inspection I sent him an email with a short report and asked if he REALLY wanted me to continue and send a full review to this forum.  He said "send it back"....

-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: September/18/2009 at 18:19
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

I had the supplier send me one for review.  After the first few minutes of inspection I sent him an email with a short report and asked if he REALLY wanted me to continue and send a full review to this forum.  He said "send it back"....
 
Laugh 
Not sure why, but thats hilarious.


Posted By: 3_tens
Date Posted: September/18/2009 at 20:47
We still deserve a report. Maybe even pics too.

-------------
Folks ain't got a sense of humor no more. They don't laugh they just get sore.

Need to follow the rules. Just hard to determine which set of rules to follow
Now the rules have changed again.


Posted By: Ed Connelly
Date Posted: September/18/2009 at 21:20
Every once in a while ( once a week ) I jump on a thread right in the middle and without even READING IT I announce that I am making a comment without any " previous bias or intelligent information"  to offer....
 
This is a classic.........
 
SAVE YOUR $99....
 
When you get more money gathered up......buy a GOOD Scope .....or get an OLD, GOOD Scope off of ebay......
 
Hasta la vista........
 


-------------
Be sure to visit,

http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_topics.asp?FID=50 - THE ED SHOW

Ju Cucarachas!!!


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: September/18/2009 at 23:25
Originally posted by 3_tens 3_tens wrote:

We still deserve a report. Maybe even pics too.
 
_tens, I made an agreement that I would not post the report, but would comment on the claims.  The SEAL's does not approach the capability of the Nightforce... or of many lessor quality scopes.  The tube was nowhere near the "density" of a Nightforce, the glass was slightly better than the glass in my NcStar, the turrets were "weak"in all respects.  I intended to mount it on my Lott for testing, but was afraid to do so, did not mount it on any rifle.  I looked at this unit quite some time back and do not have my notes with me, so that is all the comment I am willing to make.  I have no insight into durability, only an opinion, which I will not express.  Overall, the advertisement did not reflect the reality of the item.  The recommended price was much too high. 


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: October/13/2009 at 13:15

You were gonna send it to me to run side-by-side with Nightforce, and they were so displeased with your appraisal, I never got to run it.


In the Marine Corps, we called that a "Bravo Foxtrot", or "buddy-dick", for the more sensitive among us.


Buddy Dicker!



-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: October/13/2009 at 13:58
I should have been NICER????
 
 


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living



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