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6.5 Grendel or 450 Bushmaster

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Topic: 6.5 Grendel or 450 Bushmaster
Posted By: Lockjaw
Subject: 6.5 Grendel or 450 Bushmaster
Date Posted: July/16/2018 at 11:16
Want to make my little AR something I deer hunt with. Live in Alabama. Could take a long shot, but... don't need to. 

Thoughts on each? 

Seems like for reloading I could do way more with the grendel. 



Replies:
Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: July/16/2018 at 12:12
 As both are an upper swap, get both and let us know.

But, short of that, they are very, very different rounds, with very, very different ballistics.  The Bushmaster is not a long-range round, and the Grendel is not a brute force round.


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: July/16/2018 at 13:12
I'm struggling with the choice to be honest. Part of me wants a 16 in 450 for woods hunting, and part of me wants the 6.5 for going pig hunting with a buddy. At least I'm hoping he will invite me.



Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: July/16/2018 at 16:24
 Okay, that helps.

For piggies, especially up close, the 450 is a good choice.  I have a 45/70 and it makes a mess of pigs every time, good blood trail, lots of impact trauma.  And pig hunting is usually a low light game, which means not long range, which means 450. (For clarity, my 45/70 is not an AR, but I have considered a big bore AR upper for just that reason. What has kept me from it is I do not have a suppressor that would work with a 450 or 460 or 500 AR rifle round - at least one that wouldn't turn a 16" upper into a 35" broomstick.)

The Grendel is intriguing, but it is a longer distance round with more ass than a 223; the bushmaster is a whole other thing.

With your update, I'd say do the bushmaster and set it up with a good 1-4 or 1-6.  That'd be a good pig gun setup.


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: cpwomack
Date Posted: July/17/2018 at 06:41
I have no experience with the 450 Bushmaster but I do have two 6.5 Grendels. One is an 18" and the other is a 12.5" pistol. I used the the 18" to hunt deer with last year. I hunt in the Southeast (Tennessee, Alabama, and Arkansas)and rarely have a shot opportunity that exceeds 200 yards. Took a nice 8 point and a doe, both shots were about 80 yards and both dropped within 25 yards. I was using factory 123 grain SST and they performed really well, complete pass through and a good blood trail. I think either one would make a great rifle for what you want.


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: July/17/2018 at 15:25
Or 300 Blackout where you can choose between supersonic 125g or subsonic 220 gr as need changes. This runs the same bolt as the 5.56 so just the upper is all you need same mags as 5.56.
The one thing you don't want to do is ram a 300 into a 5.56 chamber and blow it up so mark your mags somehow.


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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: urbaneruralite
Date Posted: July/17/2018 at 17:58
Do you want a .250 Savage or a .45/70? Do you want cheap practice ammo or are you only going to shoot a box per year?

If you have doubts about the Grendel on hogs, check out the Carpe Sus channel on youtube. He shows what it will and won't do on hogs.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: July/17/2018 at 18:28
One thing to note 450 bush uses pistol bullets. .458 socom uses rifle bullets. Both have their pluses and minuses depending upon usage.

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: July/19/2018 at 12:00
The issue with a Socom is the entry price.  And finding ammo. Reloading is an option for sure. 

I think I can find grendel or bushmaster locally. I am going to see about the socom round. 

Not a fan of the 300blk. If I wanted to do subsonic and suppress it, maybe. A suppressor is in the works for deer hunting though, since they made that legal here. 

And quite frankly, here is my dilemma. I'm in a hunting club. Our lease calls for us to shoot basically 3 year old bucks. They take jaw bones and other measurements from every deer harvested. The problem is educating everyone, myself included, on how to age a deer. So the rule is 3 points on one side is the minimum. 

The second issue is we have a lot of guys that just sit in the shooting houses on green fields. Some of them are set up improperly for the prevailing wind direction. As in, they are upwind of the fields. So that doesn't work.

The third issue is we need to really get the PH right, and plant different stuff. Planting 21 green fields in wheat, oats and rye with a few winter peas mixed in doesn't seem to be the ticket. We have 2500+ acre's and we don't have probably 10 acre's planted. 

So what I do is try to find places no one hunts, and hunt them. Which means its thick. So the big bore is probably better. I plan to hunt my with 30/30 more too, and use the hog hammer ammo it likes. Buffalo Bore says that bullet is the bullet for a 30/30 short of a moose. 

Most of it is planted pines, we have had a bunch clear cut, and then we have hardwood bottoms. Anu shooting house or clear cut I sit on I can cover with my 700 SPS 308, or 270. The woods, or short fields, I really want to be able to anchor what I shoot. 

So my 308 I have to test out my Berger Classic Hunter 165's and see which load groups the best, and then test them at distance. 

So in the thick stuff, I need a fast follow up shot, and my bolt guns, and even the lever gun don't really give me that. Not to mention a 150gr 30/30 isn't exactly a powerhouse. 




Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: July/19/2018 at 14:28
Well local gun shop has no 458 socom. They have 450 bushmaster. I asked dude if they kept it, and he said they did, BUT.... sometimes people come in and buy it all. 

I did notice they had the barnes 30-30 ammo marked down to 15.99 a box, and while I am sure its probably not the same powder as the Remington Hog Hammer ammo, my 30-30 seems to like the bullet in Remington trim, so.... hoping the barnes ammo is the same. 

I saw a test on youtube where that ammo went through 6 gallon water jugs, so..... It ought to leave a nice hole coming out. That I like. 


Posted By: urbaneruralite
Date Posted: July/19/2018 at 14:41
Speed of follow up tends to be determined by how quickly I can recover from recoil. On a magnum rifle, working the bolt doesn't make much difference because that is done and over with by the time I get back down. With lesser recoiling rounds, a different action can help. 

About the fastest thing I can think of for deer in thickets is a semi-auto shotgun. You could probably push the range to 80 yards handloading 18g/cc tungsten shot. Slugs, of course, work, but you'd want sights. Any sighting slows you down. 

Buckshot can be slung to the neck/shoulder junction right quick with your duck gun. We used to do a lot of man driving back in the day. Using that shot placement and a 12 gauge pump, my best was four deer in a row as they ran by nose-to-tail. 

Generally, anchoring deer means interrupting the CNS. With heart/lung shot placement, the most impressive things I have used dropping deer on the spot are .308-class cartridges and 120gr ballistic tip style bullets. A shot that a .300 mag would leave me expecting a 50 yard dash often just drops them right there. 


Posted By: cpwomack
Date Posted: July/19/2018 at 16:31
Our local Academy and Sportsman's Warehouse carry both, not sure if you have either. Bonus for Sportsman's Warehouse is that they carry the Hornady American Gunner 200 round value packs. The ammo is accurate in both my Grendels and at $139.99 it is a good deal, cheaper than buying new brass.


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: July/20/2018 at 08:28
I have to check Academy. No sportsmans warehouse here. I wish......

My go to for putting deer down on the spot used to be Winchester Supreme ballistic silvertip out of my 7-08. Out of my 16.5 in Ruger M77, it was death. At least the first box of ammo was. The next one, a big FAT NOPE!! 

Every deer I have shot since the first box has run off. First box, double lung one, and there would be 6 to 8 feet of hair, blood, tissue behind the deer, and a DRT deer. I guess I should have never opened my big fat mouth and boasted about the ammo/cartridge...... Embarrassed

That has lead me to try Berger's in my 308. The most effective round for me with it, at least out of the short 16.5 Ruger, was Hornady AW, 150 grain. I want meat, so I hate to put one through a shoulder. 

The 450/6.5 is more of converting to getting a fast follow up shot if needed. The 6.5 would have been ideal last fall on youth weekend when I had my boys out and they shot at the dumbest deer on the planet. 4 shots. My oldest finally hit it with my AR15 with 60 grain partition hand load. Found a ton of blood, but no deer. First 3 shots were from 7-08. I said put crosshairs on shoulder. They missed as I watched through AR scope. I finally handed my son the AR and he hit it. I was so frustrated I took gun to the range, it was dead on. 

I seemed to have that issue last season. In the field, nothing shot where it was aimed, but take it to the range, and it was dead on. And I broke 2 scopes. So my 308 SPS was out of commission, as was my 30-30. 


Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: July/20/2018 at 08:38

 For me if I'm buying factory ammo I like to buy in lots.... normally 5+ boxes at a time from the same lot..... I don't buy one box at a time so ordering ammo accomplishes this most of the time.  If you plan to reload, ordering 100 or so factory loaded rounds and reloading after those get spent make sense unless its a firearm you will shot in volume. 

I had a 450 bushmaster.  Great gun but limitation is the name of the game.  To 150 yards I was confident it would knock down and ethically kill the deer I harvest around here.   I would not have taken a shot beyond that because it gives out of gas and energy after that and it has a rather fast drop rate. 

 

If I wanted a in the woods fast shot gun that would knock deer down to 100yds, I would carry my blackout with an 8" barrel and suppressor and the 110ttsx ammo, enough to knock down in the distance and compact to swing for follow up shots....

 

I love my Grendel I have as well, 18" suppressed, but not a woods good. My friend hunts with a 12.5 Grendel woods gun and another buddy uses a 11" 6.8SPC.... The 6.8 seems to have more umpfff in it for closer ranges but the Grendel shines when distance matters. both of them run theirs suppressed.  but a 16" woods gun in AR, my top two choices would be 300 blk out or 6.8SPC.   If you want cool factor though a 458 or 450 or even a 50B would be fun. But you loose long range use with them.



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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: July/20/2018 at 08:51
Originally posted by Lockjaw Lockjaw wrote:

 The 6.5 would have been ideal last fall on youth weekend when I had my boys out and they shot at the dumbest deer on the planet. 4 shots. My oldest finally hit it with my AR15 with 60 grain partition hand load. Found a ton of blood, but no deer. First 3 shots were from 7-08. I said put crosshairs on shoulder. They missed as I watched through AR scope. I finally handed my son the AR and he hit it. I was so frustrated I took gun to the range, it was dead on. 


 

Time to take the boys to the range.

On DRT hits, you have only a few options: head, spine, neck, or shoulder.  I totally agree on the meat part, but I'll give up a front shoulder to not lose a deer.  The downside to head and neck is a miss goes really bad really quick, especially for the deer.  With shoulder, you have a bit of "wiggle room", so long as you hit that shoulder bone and grenade it, their vitals are perforated and their front legs no longer work.  I have seen a few deer try to run away with their face on the ground.  It ends with certainty, provided you can make the shoulder shot.

As the Dalai Lama so famously said:






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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: July/20/2018 at 10:15
I can vividly recall what I was doing the exact moment the Dalai Lama uttered those famous words.

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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: urbaneruralite
Date Posted: July/20/2018 at 10:21
I saw Grendel ammo at Academy yesterday. I generally order everything off the web, though. 

A deer processor once told me he didn't understand people. It's simple according to him. You use a heavy bullet out of a .308 or .30/06 and break the shoulders. Everyone just asks for burger anyway, so why try to save the shoulders? 

That's good advice, unless you put it into the point of the shoulder at close range with a fast round. Suckers blow up on the heavy bone too much of the time. If I had a nickel for every time someone wondered why the buck ran off after they shot it in the shoulder when it was quartering toward at thirty yards...

If they have standard length barrels, I'd get some soft 150gr for the .270 or 165gr for the .308 and use it to blow shoulders out near and far. Grendel will be great for the kids to take neck or heart shots. That's what I'm doing with my kids.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: July/20/2018 at 12:35
Originally posted by urbaneruralite urbaneruralite wrote:


Grendel will be great for the kids to take neck or heart shots. That's what I'm doing with my kids.
 

I'll never forget the first time I saw a doe have her lower jaw blown off, your kids will remember it too.  At least she stayed around long enough to get shot again.  There was a buck that had his jaw blown off, he ran, screaming the whole time, we never found him.  But the coyotes did.  I bet.

I do not encourage head/neck shots unless the shooter has the confidence to know it will be a clean kill.

But I'm kinda old fashioned.

On the shoulder, I agree.


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: urbaneruralite
Date Posted: July/22/2018 at 10:05
The neck and brain shots are controversial due to the easily viewed damage that occurs when you miss. Gut shots or leg shots are as bad, but they for some reason do not horrify people the same. 

Missing is missing. Fatally wounding an animal, leaving it to a slow death can happen with any shot placement. The advantage of the neck shot is that there's a whole lot more area to miss in around the target that does not wound the animal.



Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: July/23/2018 at 11:42
My academy had 6.5 Grendel ELD and that was it. Didn't think that was what I wanted. No 450 bushmaster. 

I got 3 boxes of Barnes 30/30 for 15.99 each at the local gun shop, he is clearing them out. My 30/30 likes Remington Hog Hammer alot, and this is the same bullet. Not the same powder tho, the barnes sounds compressed, the remington, no. 

So I am going to see how it shoots when I sight it back in. The FPS on both boxes is the same. I was trying to see if i could back into that load. I asked Remington if they would tell me the powder they used, and they said no. They do have some new copper round out that uses the same bullet, and I asked if it was the same and he said it was. 

I looked at a DPMS 308, it wasn't that heavy. 

I got some 180 Gr partitions for my short 308. 165 gr berger classic hunters going in 700 SPS. Maybe I will sit on it for a while and see. I just really love my AR15, it would be awesome to hunt with it. 


Posted By: cpwomack
Date Posted: July/23/2018 at 12:32
That is the only ammo Academy carries, I had to order the SST ammo. If you are ever up around Chattanooga, let me know, I would be more than happy to let you try my Grendel.


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: July/23/2018 at 16:41
I will. I am still torn. I can handle any longer range shot with a 308 or 270. But I sure do like the grendel. 

I am just dying to shoot a deer with my 30/30. I think that barnes bullet will get it done. 

Really I wish I had a one size gun for tree stands, thick cover and a longer shot. I may end up with an AR10. I just cannot deal with being in a shooting house with a 22 in barrel rifle. To hard to move around. 


Posted By: Peddler
Date Posted: July/23/2018 at 17:34
Originally posted by Lockjaw Lockjaw wrote:

I will. I am still torn. I can handle any longer range shot with a 308 or 270. But I sure do like the grendel. 

I am just dying to shoot a deer with my 30/30. I think that barnes bullet will get it done. 

Really I wish I had a one size gun for tree stands, thick cover and a longer shot. I may end up with an AR10. I just cannot deal with being in a shooting house with a 22 in barrel rifle. To hard to move around. 



A core-lokt harvested my first Whitetail when I was 16, that was the legal age then!

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When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.It is difficult only for others.

It is the same when you are stupid.


Posted By: cpwomack
Date Posted: July/23/2018 at 21:13
Originally posted by Lockjaw Lockjaw wrote:

I will. I am still torn. I can handle any longer range shot with a 308 or 270. But I sure do like the grendel. 

I am just dying to shoot a deer with my 30/30. I think that barnes bullet will get it done. 

Really I wish I had a one size gun for tree stands, thick cover and a longer shot. I may end up with an AR10. I just cannot deal with being in a shooting house with a 22 in barrel rifle. To hard to move around. 


That is why I put my 12.5 Grendel together, I am hoping once I really get to test it out it will be my primary hunting rifle. Depending on.bullet and velocity I should be able to maintain 1000 ft/lbs of energy for up to a 250 yard shot. If I can achieve that I will SBR the lower.


Posted By: urbaneruralite
Date Posted: July/23/2018 at 21:39
I started with a 30/30. It is not impressive when you hit different than you hold. Putting it on the money works as well as anything. 


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: July/24/2018 at 08:42
Originally posted by Lockjaw Lockjaw wrote:

I will. I am still torn. I can handle any longer range shot with a 308 or 270. But I sure do like the grendel. 

I am just dying to shoot a deer with my 30/30. I think that barnes bullet will get it done. 

Really I wish I had a one size gun for tree stands, thick cover and a longer shot. I may end up with an AR10. I just cannot deal with being in a shooting house with a 22 in barrel rifle. To hard to move around. 
 




I have an AR10 with a 16" barrel (308, Sig 716) and another with a 22" (Seekins SP10 in 6.5cm): THE sig is appreciably better in the field, but I have more confidence in longer shots with the seekins.  The very best of all worlds is a DTA SRS, it gets you an 18" barrel in a rifle the size of an M4.  But if you shoot lefty...


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: July/24/2018 at 10:28
Me and core lokts have not had a good history. I have shot 2 deer with them one from 7-08, 140gr, and the other from a 270, 150 grain. Never found either. The 270 was a very nice 8pt. He died, buzzards helped find him later, beautiful double lung shot. Didn't even flinch when I shot him, at 40 yards or less. 

The most impressive killing has been my 7-08 with winchester supreme BST, but... the new version of it. nope. I hate it too. I had the confidence that if I had a deer in the scope, and pulled the trigger, it was down for the count. So many DRT. I killed 8 in one year with it, none ran over 25 yards. I shot one facing me, and flipped it over. Out of my 16.5 in Ruger. 

I suppose there is no magic bullet, but for a while there, I had it. 

I looked at 300 blk, not gonna get there for me. I think if I want to run an SBR, I should step up to a 308 or something. 


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: July/24/2018 at 11:42
 DRT is about trauma, not about filling lungs with blood or puncturing the heart, or both.


I mostly hunt South Texas, in very, very thick scrub, and everything has a thorn.  Not only have I spent many hours picking needles out of me, but I've lost an animal or 2 that were very, very well hit.

My recipe for success and the only recipe that has lead to almost all DRT kills is a 300 Winchester Magnum shooting Barnes TSX or TTSX at max velocity (just backed off from first pressure signs) - and the round placed right into the front shoulder.  Yes, it damages meat (that eventually becomes burger or sausage anyway) but a deer cannot run off when its heart and lungs are perforated AND its front legs don't work.

That said, I've popped a few hogs with the same gun in the same spot and a hog CAN run off without functioning front legs.  It is a sad and funny thing to see, but those little bastards are tough.

For things I am more comfortable tracking a bit, or if it is a smaller animal that won't survive the impact regardless, I use either a shorter 308 (16") with 168 TAP or a 243AI with 105 Amax, both are hammers, neither has to authority to cause the trauma of the 300WM.

There is no magic bullet or magic caliber, but there is confidence, and it has to be earned.


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Scrumbag
Date Posted: July/24/2018 at 15:34
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

 DRT is about trauma, not about filling lungs with blood or puncturing the heart, or both.


I mostly hunt South Texas, in very, very thick scrub, and everything has a thorn.  Not only have I spent many hours picking needles out of me, but I've lost an animal or 2 that were very, very well hit.

My recipe for success and the only recipe that has lead to almost all DRT kills is a 300 Winchester Magnum shooting Barnes TSX or TTSX at max velocity (just backed off from first pressure signs) - and the round placed right into the front shoulder.  Yes, it damages meat (that eventually becomes burger or sausage anyway) but a deer cannot run off when its heart and lungs are perforated AND its front legs don't work.

That said, I've popped a few hogs with the same gun in the same spot and a hog CAN run off without functioning front legs.  It is a sad and funny thing to see, but those little bastards are tough.

For things I am more comfortable tracking a bit, or if it is a smaller animal that won't survive the impact regardless, I use either a shorter 308 (16") with 168 TAP or a 243AI with 105 Amax, both are hammers, neither has to authority to cause the trauma of the 300WM.

There is no magic bullet or magic caliber, but there is confidence, and it has to be earned.


There is a lot of truth that quadrupeds don't make good tripeds and even less functional bipeds. However, I'm always amazed how far deer can drive themselves basically on their nose


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Was sure I had a point when I started this post...


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: July/24/2018 at 16:26
When I think back about all the deer I have killed, I only recall one ever being DRT with my 270. Lost several.
 I had 2 I shot with a bow that were CNS down, not dead, but unable to run. One ran 30 yards. One broke my arrow and didn't die. 
44 mag I shot one deer, it ran off, but not far, nice blood trail.
708, probably greater than 50% DRT. Lost two deer. Killed the most deer with it. 
308, lost one deer. 165 grain. 150's I found every one. 

I have helped track deer that were shot with a 308, and no blood hardly. I helped a guy hunt for a deer he shot with a 270, cor lock, found bone, blood and tissue. Blood trail disappeared. 
Lost one last year my son shot with my AR15 and a 60 grain partition. Plenty of blood. Every deer I have never found except for one, I had good blood and then it stopped. 

Guy at our club shot a doe a few years ago with a 338 Win mag, we never found it. 

I have shot several deer through the front shoulder, and yes, they can propel themselves places. But it is tough on them. I guess since it ends up being burger anyway, I should start there. 



Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: July/25/2018 at 17:04
Due to Michigan DNR rules for the southern zone only straight walled cartridges under a 1.80 inches are allowed. The  .450 is selling in huge numbers in bolt actions and AR's.

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Doug


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: July/25/2018 at 17:24
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Originally posted by Lockjaw Lockjaw wrote:

I will. I am still torn. I can handle any longer range shot with a 308 or 270. But I sure do like the grendel. 

I am just dying to shoot a deer with my 30/30. I think that barnes bullet will get it done. 

Really I wish I had a one size gun for tree stands, thick cover and a longer shot. I may end up with an AR10. I just cannot deal with being in a shooting house with a 22 in barrel rifle. To hard to move around. 
 




I have an AR10 with a 16" barrel (308, Sig 716) and another with a 22" (Seekins SP10 in 6.5cm): THE sig is appreciably better in the field, but I have more confidence in longer shots with the seekins.  The very best of all worlds is a DTA SRS, it gets you an 18" barrel in a rifle the size of an M4.  But if you shoot lefty...

I am surprised you havn't bought DTA's MDR yet.

ILya


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http://www.opticsthoughts.com - www.opticsthoughts.com
http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
https://www.instagram.com/darklordofoptics/ - Instagram


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: July/25/2018 at 17:45
 I shoot ambi, and it isn't a great gun for weakside shooting.  That, and I was planning to get one 2 years ago when they were supposed to come out.  When a thing is delayed that long, I get a bit wary.

I'm not a huge bullpup fan, but I do like smaller footprint with a normal barrel length.

Do you have one?


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: July/26/2018 at 02:40
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

 I shoot ambi, and it isn't a great gun for weakside shooting.  That, and I was planning to get one 2 years ago when they were supposed to come out.  When a thing is delayed that long, I get a bit wary.

I'm not a huge bullpup fan, but I do like smaller footprint with a normal barrel length.

Do you have one?

Their Cali-legal version is not out yet, but initial reports on the regular version are pretty good.

I am on the fence whether to get the MDR or Kel-Tec's bullpup that is pretty ambidextrous.  I also shoot both sides, although I am normally right handed.  Up to no Kel-tec was pretty much the best game in town for ambi shooting.

ILya


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