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Nikon's Exciting Entry Into Full-Frame Mirrorless

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Topic: Nikon's Exciting Entry Into Full-Frame Mirrorless
Posted By: Skylar McMahon
Subject: Nikon's Exciting Entry Into Full-Frame Mirrorless
Date Posted: July/25/2018 at 16:35
Came across something extremely cool today. 

Originally posted by www.competitor.com www.competitor.com wrote:



What have you always dreamed of in a mirrorless camera? Full-frame? Class-leading optics? The Nikon name emblazoned on top? Your dreams may be answered soon because Nikon has used its 101st birthday to announce the development of its own full-frame mirrorless camera system officially, complete with a new, currently unnamed mount and fresh NIKKOR glass.

Designed from the ground up, the Nikon mirrorless will feature a brand-new mount, one that Nikon claims opens the door for groundbreaking optical opportunities. As a company with more than a century of experience in this field, it will be interesting to see how the new NIKKOR lenses make use of this system and what distinct advantages they might deliver over other systems.

For existing Nikon users with NIKKOR lenses, Nikon is also developing a mount adapter that will enable the use of a wide variety of F-Mount NIKKOR lenses with the new camera.

Last year, Nikon announced the D850, a class-leading DSLR that we absolutely loved during our time reviewing it. Even today, it has remained as immensely popular as it was at the time of its launch. Taking this experience forward, we are excited to see what Nikon will bring to the market in the mirrorless category.

While it has announced the development of a mirrorless camera, the company has also reaffirmed its commitment to continuing to bringing DSLRs to market, providing photographers with even more choice when it comes to their imaging tools.




Replies:
Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: July/25/2018 at 20:47
Dammit...they had me VERY interested until they said "new mount." Granted, they said F-mount lenses could be used "with an adapter." The use of adapters usually means some functionality or capability is lost, though. I don't understand why they wouldn't design it to allow current Nikon customers to use their existing F lenses. That doesn't seem like the smartest move to me, but maybe there are valid tech/design reasons to get away from the F-mount. Nevertheless, I look forward to seeing what they came up with. They're really going to have to bring their "A" game to go head to head with Sony in the FF mirrorless category.

-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Skylar McMahon
Date Posted: July/26/2018 at 10:20
I noticed that too. Mirrorless is the wave of the future like you said a while back. I'm anxious to see how this thing looks. I have no doubt the images it supplies will be nothing short of amazing. 



Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: July/26/2018 at 15:47
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Dammit...they had me VERY interested until they said "new mount." Granted, they said F-mount lenses could be used "with an adapter." The use of adapters usually means some functionality or capability is lost, though. I don't understand why they wouldn't design it to allow current Nikon customers to use their existing F lenses. That doesn't seem like the smartest move to me, but maybe there are valid tech/design reasons to get away from the F-mount. Nevertheless, I look forward to seeing what they came up with. They're really going to have to bring their "A" game to go head to head with Sony in the FF mirrorless category.

There are valid tech reasons.

Also, there is no reason to have loss of functionality with adapters if the company making the adaptor also makes the camera and the lens.

If they made a mirrorless camera with the original F-mount, it would be virtually guaranteed to die a slow painful death over the next few years.

ILya


-------------
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Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: July/26/2018 at 15:47
Originally posted by Skylar McMahon Skylar McMahon wrote:

I noticed that too. Mirrorless is the wave of the future like you said a while back. I'm anxious to see how this thing looks. I have no doubt the images it supplies will be nothing short of amazing. 


Why no doubt?  We know virtually nothing about this camera so far.

ILya


-------------
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Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: July/26/2018 at 16:22
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:


There are valid tech reasons.

Also, there is no reason to have loss of functionality with adapters if the company making the adaptor also makes the camera and the lens.

If they made a mirrorless camera with the original F-mount, it would be virtually guaranteed to die a slow painful death over the next few years.

ILya

I believe you, but it would seem logical to me that, mirrorless or not, a FF sensor size should be able to support the F-mount. I realize that change is always inevitable and everything eventually evolves over time, but why would the F-mount pose design limitations on a new class of lenses for a mirrorless camera when dealing with a FF size sensor? Isn't a mount nothing more than a bayonet design, a prescribed diameter hole in the body compatible with the sensor area, and a set of electrical contacts to drive focusing and aperture control? If all it takes is an adapter to use F lenses on their new mount, and assuming no functionality is lost as a penalty by doing so, then why not just use the same connection for the new lenses? Given that the mount design is an exterior feature that's part of the lens shell and is a connection and electrical contact interface, I don't understand how that would in some way limit the design possibilities of the optical system inside the lens, unless part of the concern is reducing lens outside diameter...but then we're still dealing with a FF size sensor.

The thing that concerns me and makes me think maybe some functionality might be lost with the adapter is the statement in their press release that "some" F-mount lenses could be used with the adapter. 

Of course, all I can do is speculate until I see what they unveil. It would be nice to have a body with similar or better capability, resolution, and pro build quality as the D850 that's also thinner and lighter.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: July/26/2018 at 16:43
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:


There are valid tech reasons.

Also, there is no reason to have loss of functionality with adapters if the company making the adaptor also makes the camera and the lens.

If they made a mirrorless camera with the original F-mount, it would be virtually guaranteed to die a slow painful death over the next few years.

ILya

I believe you, but it would seem logical to me that, mirrorless or not, a FF sensor size should be able to support the F-mount. I realize that change is always inevitable and everything eventually evolves over time, but why would the F-mount pose design limitations on a new class of lenses for a mirrorless camera when dealing with a FF size sensor? Isn't a mount nothing more than a bayonet design, a prescribed diameter hole in the body compatible with the sensor area, and a set of electrical contacts to drive focusing and aperture control? If all it takes is an adapter to use F lenses on their new mount, and assuming no functionality is lost as a penalty by doing so, then why not just use the same connection for the new lenses? Given that the mount design is an exterior feature that's part of the lens shell and is a connection and electrical contact interface, I don't understand how that would in some way limit the design possibilities of the optical system inside the lens, unless part of the concern is reducing lens outside diameter...but then we're still dealing with a FF size sensor.

The thing that concerns me and makes me think maybe some functionality might be lost with the adapter is the statement in their press release that "some" F-mount lenses could be used with the adapter. 

Of course, all I can do is speculate until I see what they unveil. It would be nice to have a body with similar or better capability, resolution, and pro build quality as the D850 that's also thinner and lighter.

The problem is flange distance.  There is a huge advantage in having a shorter flange distance for wide angle lenses.  Flange distance is why with traditional DSLRs wide angle lenses are so large.

The adapter will likely not support older lenses that relied on the motor in the body to adjust aperture.  Some Nikon bodies already do not support those lenses.

ILya


-------------
http://www.opticsthoughts.com - www.opticsthoughts.com
http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
https://www.instagram.com/darklordofoptics/ - Instagram


Posted By: Skylar McMahon
Date Posted: August/23/2018 at 08:17
More....




Posted By: Skylar McMahon
Date Posted: August/23/2018 at 15:29
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Dammit...they had me VERY interested until they said "new mount." Granted, they said F-mount lenses could be used "with an adapter." The use of adapters usually means some functionality or capability is lost, though. I don't understand why they wouldn't design it to allow current Nikon customers to use their existing F lenses. That doesn't seem like the smartest move to me, but maybe there are valid tech/design reasons to get away from the F-mount. Nevertheless, I look forward to seeing what they came up with. They're really going to have to bring their "A" game to go head to head with Sony in the FF mirrorless category.

They are also offering a Z mount to F mount adapter. Like Ilya said, I don't think that the image quality will be as affected as one would think. I'm trying to think of what I can sell now???


Posted By: Skylar McMahon
Date Posted: August/23/2018 at 15:40
Wait....only one card slot? Why, Nikon, why....SD writing failures happen often. In my 810, I use the secondary CF to write a duplicate of what I shoot just in case something happens to the SD. 

I'm sure that will change with later generations. 



Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: August/23/2018 at 15:42
Originally posted by Skylar McMahon Skylar McMahon wrote:

Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Dammit...they had me VERY interested until they said "new mount." Granted, they said F-mount lenses could be used "with an adapter." The use of adapters usually means some functionality or capability is lost, though. I don't understand why they wouldn't design it to allow current Nikon customers to use their existing F lenses. That doesn't seem like the smartest move to me, but maybe there are valid tech/design reasons to get away from the F-mount. Nevertheless, I look forward to seeing what they came up with. They're really going to have to bring their "A" game to go head to head with Sony in the FF mirrorless category.

They are also offering a Z mount to F mount adapter. Like Ilya said, I don't think that the image quality will be as affected as one would think. I'm trying to think of what I can sell now???

I would give it a year or so before jumping in on the Z mount camera.

They do look very promising, although a couple of things look like somewhat odd decisions to me.

I'll have to get my hands on one of these to see how the ergonomics work for me.

ILya


-------------
http://www.opticsthoughts.com - www.opticsthoughts.com
http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
https://www.instagram.com/darklordofoptics/ - Instagram


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: August/23/2018 at 15:50
Single card slot is an odd decision.  ISO range for Z6 is another one.  Pricing for Z7 is a little questionable.

I am sorta in the market for a new high res camera, so I am somewhat interested, but I will wait for GFX 50R to be released before I make any decisions.

ILya


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http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
https://www.instagram.com/darklordofoptics/ - Instagram


Posted By: Skylar McMahon
Date Posted: August/23/2018 at 15:55
GFX 50R...aren't those medium format?


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: August/23/2018 at 16:16
Originally posted by Skylar McMahon Skylar McMahon wrote:

GFX 50R...aren't those medium format?

Correct.

I am not invested into any mount to any significant extent at this point, so I can do whatever rocks my boat.

All I need is a high resolution body with 28mm equivvalent and 50mm equivalent primes.  I want the body and the lenses weathersealed.  Everything else is nice, but not critical.

One of my problems with Nikon is weather sealing (or lack thereof) in many prime lenses and what appears to be very subpar weather sealing in most bodies.

ILya


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http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
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Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: August/23/2018 at 22:52
Originally posted by Skylar McMahon Skylar McMahon wrote:

Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Dammit...they had me VERY interested until they said "new mount." Granted, they said F-mount lenses could be used "with an adapter." The use of adapters usually means some functionality or capability is lost, though. I don't understand why they wouldn't design it to allow current Nikon customers to use their existing F lenses. That doesn't seem like the smartest move to me, but maybe there are valid tech/design reasons to get away from the F-mount. Nevertheless, I look forward to seeing what they came up with. They're really going to have to bring their "A" game to go head to head with Sony in the FF mirrorless category.

They are also offering a Z mount to F mount adapter. Like Ilya said, I don't think that the image quality will be as affected as one would think. I'm trying to think of what I can sell now???

It's not the image quality that I was concerned would be affected. What I was referring to is the fact that when using some adapters, you often lose things like aperture control through the body, autofocusing, and image stabilization. So your fully functional electronically controlled lens then becomes a manual focus only lens without IS/VR and sometimes without the ability to control aperture through the body. I have no idea whether or not this would be the case with adapters on the new mount, but this is often the penalty you pay when using an adapter to use a non-native lens.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Skylar McMahon
Date Posted: August/25/2018 at 15:05
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by Skylar McMahon Skylar McMahon wrote:

Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Dammit...they had me VERY interested until they said "new mount." Granted, they said F-mount lenses could be used "with an adapter." The use of adapters usually means some functionality or capability is lost, though. I don't understand why they wouldn't design it to allow current Nikon customers to use their existing F lenses. That doesn't seem like the smartest move to me, but maybe there are valid tech/design reasons to get away from the F-mount. Nevertheless, I look forward to seeing what they came up with. They're really going to have to bring their "A" game to go head to head with Sony in the FF mirrorless category.

They are also offering a Z mount to F mount adapter. Like Ilya said, I don't think that the image quality will be as affected as one would think. I'm trying to think of what I can sell now???

It's not the image quality that I was concerned would be affected. What I was referring to is the fact that when using some adapters, you often lose things like aperture control through the body, autofocusing, and image stabilization. So your fully functional electronically controlled lens then becomes a manual focus only lens without IS/VR and sometimes without the ability to control aperture through the body. I have no idea whether or not this would be the case with adapters on the new mount, but this is often the penalty you pay when using an adapter to use a non-native lens.

During B&H live stream panel discussion, I asked the question. Unfortunately it went unaddressed. Although it is still out there. So hopefully someone knowledgeable on the subject will chime in. 


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: August/25/2018 at 15:09
What is the question?

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Posted By: Skylar McMahon
Date Posted: August/25/2018 at 17:47
Aperture control loss with the adapter installed for use with F mounted lenses, auto-focusing, ect...Those were some of Ted's concerns. 



Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: August/25/2018 at 18:02
All of that will work just fine.

ILya

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http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
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Posted By: Skylar McMahon
Date Posted: August/25/2018 at 18:40
Ilya, what about a Hasselblad?


Posted By: Skylar McMahon
Date Posted: August/25/2018 at 18:41
For your next Medium format camera?


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: August/25/2018 at 19:28
It is a viable option, but a little too much money. If I did more flash photography it would be at the to of the list.

ILya

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http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
https://www.instagram.com/darklordofoptics/ - Instagram


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: August/28/2018 at 09:21
From the specs and other info I'm seeing about the Z7, there may very well be one of those in my future this winter. I was planning to eventually get another full frame body to replace my D800, but was holding off on pulling the trigger on a D850 because I heard the rumor they were working on a FF mirrorless and was waiting to see what they came up with. I just wish it had 2 card slots. I don't understand that decision. I'm also not very impressed with the expected battery life specs, but I can overcome that with a few extra backup batteries. Other than those 2 issues, at least on paper, it looks like it might go toe to toe with the D850. I wonder if its C-AF accuracy will rival their pro-level DSLRs? Despite improvements in mirrorless cameras, that still seems to be the Achilles heel of the contrast detection AF in mirrorless bodies vs phase detection in DSLRs. I like the fact that they added in-body stabilization, and apparently either they have some version of the 5-axis body-lens sync stabilization that Oly uses or the 5-axis is completely in-body, simulating the same performance and making lens stabilization unnecessary(?)

After seeing that the new Z mount is larger than the F mount and reading their reasoning behind the design change, it makes good sense to me now. They did say that use of the adapter retained full functional use of F lenses, which is great news.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: August/28/2018 at 10:20
If I were you I would give it another year or so.  This is not where I would want to be a first adopter.  Early impressions of the AF are a bit mixed, so I would give them some time to fix that.

Most higher end mirrorless cameras these days use a combination of on-sensor PDAF and CAF (except for Panasonic's DFD), but there is a fair amount of know-how there.  Nikon was a bit ahead of the game in that regard with their One system, but then they stopped development, so now they have some catchup to do.

In principle, it is a superior system to the flopping mirrors of DSLRs, but in practice, it will take alittle more time to perfect it.  

ILya


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http://www.opticsthoughts.com - www.opticsthoughts.com
http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
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Posted By: Scrumbag
Date Posted: August/28/2018 at 12:48
I must admit, my old Pentax digital SLRs are looking a bit dated... this could be tempting..

Scrummy


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Was sure I had a point when I started this post...


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: August/30/2018 at 10:59
I spent some time digging through all of the available info on the Z6/Z7 launch and it is a little bipolar, as is fairly common for Nikon.

I think Nikon engineers, did a much better job than Nikon marketing people did, which is also not uncommon for Nikon.

There is a bunch of really weird product decisions there, but overall it is more good than bad.

I think Nikon is going to succeed with these despite their intrepid marketing department doing their best to screw things up.

That having been said, if you are in the market for a new camera and you are looking at these, I suggest you wait just a little bit until the first adopters get their hands on them.  

Also, while these cameras are going to work very well with legacy lenses, expect the autofocus in low light to be a little weak.  If low light is one of the things you do, expect to buy one of the new lenses native to the Z mount.  On the good side, both 35mm and 50mm primes look extremely promising.

ILya


-------------
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Posted By: Skylar McMahon
Date Posted: August/30/2018 at 11:02
Only issue with the native lenses at the moment are non of them are fast. Their solutions will not be available until next year. 


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: August/30/2018 at 11:03
It will take time.

Be mindful of the F/1.8 primes though.  I expect them to have the best corner performance of all Nikon lenses to date.

ILya


-------------
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http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
https://www.instagram.com/darklordofoptics/ - Instagram


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: August/30/2018 at 11:06
I will say that if I were a dedicated Nikon shooter, I would be slowly divesting my F-mount lenses and replacing them with newer stuff as it arrives.

Nikon seems to have intentionally hamstrung some things in their AF, presumably in order to keep their DSLRs alive for a little longer.

ILya


-------------
http://www.opticsthoughts.com - www.opticsthoughts.com
http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
https://www.instagram.com/darklordofoptics/ - Instagram


Posted By: m00n
Date Posted: August/30/2018 at 15:11
I won't be an early adopter - I'm going to have to limp along for a few years with the D850 I picked up last fall. 

As for the legacy lenses, I'm finding that just a handful of my older lenses live up to the potential of the 46MP sensor that the D850 shares with the Z cameras.  So, even with a flawless F/Z adapter, many of the older "legacy" lenses may not measure up well on the mirrorless cameras anyway.

http://www.dslrbodies.com/cameras/the-d850-blog/the-best-lenses-for-the.html - http://www.dslrbodies.com/cameras/the-d850-blog/the-best-lenses-for-the.html

Kind of a conundrum, I don't have many G or E lenses and although the 105mm 1.4 looks pretty tempting, I doubt that I'll be picking up any new F-mount lenses now.  The number of Z lenses scheduled for release looks pretty limited though and the range of focal lengths that will be offered runs from 14mm to only 200mm.  I wonder if longer Z telephoto lenses would have to be pretty huge.  The planned 58mm 0.95 Noct sure stands out and looks pretty intriguing but, at an estimated $6,000 MSRP, I'll never see one.  My cherished 58mm 1.2 Noct works quite well with the 46MP sensor anyway and hopefully would cross over to the mirrorless world too.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: August/30/2018 at 16:03
For telephoto lenses there will be no practical size difference between F-mount and Z-mount lenses.  As you pointed out, not all lenses can perform to the full potential of a very high resolution sensor like in Z7 or D850.

There will be a significant difference in the design of wide angle and low f/# lenses.

ILya






-------------
http://www.opticsthoughts.com - www.opticsthoughts.com
http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
https://www.instagram.com/darklordofoptics/ - Instagram


Posted By: Skylar McMahon
Date Posted: August/30/2018 at 16:09
Both of those cameras have variations in the sub-menu and you don't have to shoot at maximum. You could change the megapixel ration down to DX format.

I'm not saying that I would do that, because I like having that available as an option. 



Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: August/30/2018 at 16:20
Originally posted by Skylar McMahon Skylar McMahon wrote:

Both of those cameras have variations in the sub-menu and you don't have to shoot at maximum. You could change the megapixel ration down to DX format.

I'm not saying that I would do that, because I like having that available as an option. 


That will help a little, but not all that much.  With older lenses it is not just a matter of corner performance, but simply insufficient resolution for the pixel pitch.

ILya


-------------
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http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
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