OpticsTalk by SWFA, Inc. Homepage SWFA     SampleList.com
Forum Home Forum Home > Firearms, Bows, and Ammunition > Shooting
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - R700 .458 Winchester Magnum...
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Visit the SWFA.com site to check out our current specials.

R700 .458 Winchester Magnum...

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 21143
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: R700 .458 Winchester Magnum...
    Posted: October/13/2019 at 16:27
I have the subject rifle, built by Remington Custom Shop, that I acquired a few years ago.  I've been considering rechambering to .458 Lott. ( I have Ruger #1 in .458 Lott and LOVE IT).  I've recently found load data for .458 WinMag using 510 grain RNSP and Norma 201 to produce 2350 fps from a 24 inch barrel.  That load is in very close in performance to the best I've found for the Lott.  I love the Lott, it is my absolute favorite of all my rifles.  
I went out today to test the R700 Custom Shop rifle with Remington Hi-Speed ammo 510 grains at 2150 fps... producing under 1MOA at 100, recoil is mild.  I'm pretty sure I can successfully tackle any DG I care to with that... but I still want the Lott.
I always fear that altering anything, when you have great performance, will create problems.  I have an appointment with the best gunsmith in the area tomorrow morning.  I'm going to take him the gun, let him look it over, get some guarantees.  If he is not willing to guarantee performance after the rechamber, I'll probably just leave it as is.  
I have not shot it in a while, glad I did today.  I just keep thinking about the ad that convinced me to purchase the .458 Lott...".458 Lott... guaranteed to knock down anything that walks on the planet".  Hard to resist.  
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Resident Redneck

Joined: June/20/2005
Location: Iowa
Status: Offline
Points: 14516
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/14/2019 at 20:53
Is the action long enough for the LOTT the brass looks quite a bit longer.  Would it be the same bolt face? Changing the bolt face is the thing I would worry about because this type caliber Must extract and eject. Can it use the Badger Ordnance AR type Magnum extractor or a Sako type extractor?
What about building one on an action like a Ruger 77 controlled round feed?

or........ buy a double rifle problem solved.

Personally a .458 WM that shoots that well I would leave alone.  It's been a very long time since I owned a .458 WM the .375H&H is as heavy as I go currently.  Most recent rifle was a Marlin 1894 SBL stainless .44 mag 16 in barrel very nice rifle.  My results having rifles built have not met my expectations. Your results may vary.











Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - October/14/2019 at 20:58

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 21143
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/14/2019 at 23:15
Yes, I am still "thinking" about it.  The Custom Shop does great work and this gun shoots like a champ. The magazine is definitely long enough.  Long ago, when I began the thought process on this, I loaded a Lott cartridge in the magazine and a WinMag cartridge on top of it, chambered and ejected the WinMag cartridge and started the Lott cartridge into the chamber.  Of course, I did not jam it home so could not check ejection of the Lott cartridge.  I have loaded and ejected a number of .375 H&H cartridges.  The measurements I've taken indicate it should be good to go... however, questions to Remington Custom Shop go unanswered and they did not respond (3 times) to my requests for a quote... email, phone message and direct conversation with someone who was going to get a gunsmith to phone me back... no one did.  Obviously, they don't need/want the work.  The gunsmith I'm going to is rated as the best in this area and has all the required equipment.  He said we would take detailed measurements before going ahead, but he believes it is a straightforward rechamber.  However, I could be taking a great shooting rifle and turning it into a moderate to poor shooting rifle to gain about 100fps.  
I'm not afraid to take the Ruger #1 Lott and the R700 WinMag as "back up".  

It is a decision I have to make by Wednesday...  I know... I should just get a bolt action rifle in .458 Lott... Then I would have single shot and repeater Lott rifles and single shot and repeater WinMags... matching sets, so to speak.  
But then, the real temptation is... why not just get a .460 Weatherby???  I probably really need a whale gun...
If I were to go the purchase route, it won't be a CZ... I won't ever purchase another CZ...
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
RifleDude View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
EVIL OPPRESSOR

Joined: October/13/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 16050
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2019 at 06:08
Not a difficult conversion at all, and doesn’t require any abnormal level of expertise. Any gunsmith that can chamber a barrel can do it. .458 Win Mag and .458 Lott share the same .375 H&H parent case, so both have .532” rim dia. The only difference is the Lott has .3” longer case. You merely run a .458 Lott chamber reamer into the existing chamber and lengthen it. 

Where you might run into a bit of a problem, depending on your specific load, is mag box length. The Lott has .3” longer COAL, so you will be crowding your mag box. I don’t know offhand, but I believe the Rem LA mag box interior is something like 3.65”, which would give you around .05” clearance. The max SAAMI length of the Lott is 3.6”, so you should have enough room as long as ammo used doesn’t exceed that length. If you’re concerned, you could always replace the Rem mag box with a Wyatts extended box, which gives you another .150” or so.

If the rifle shoots well, I think I’d just leave it alone, however. But that’s me. If .458 Win Mag won’t get the job done, .458 Lott isn’t magically gonna come to the rescue. Unless the justification for the rechamber is just for ammo commonality reasons. 
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 21143
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2019 at 11:30
The magazine accepts Lott ammo with no problem.  It appears the most common difficulty is action length... the .458 WinMag action is "normally" based on 30-06 action... the .458 Lott requires a "true magnum" action to prevent any cycling issues.  I've cycled .375 H&H easily (it's cartridge case is the full 2.85 inch...3.6 OAL, Lott is 2.80.. 3.6 OAL, .458 WinMag is 2.50...3.34 OAL) so believe the action is sufficient.  However, in six months of trying to contact the Remington Custom Shop who built the thing, I've not been able to gat "THE" gunsmith I need to talk to to confirm.  
I do have rechambering reservations... simply because the final product is entirely dependent on the gunsmith and machinery used to perform the task.  
The .458 WinMag case capacity is 94 grains H20 while the Lott is 110.  The Lott gives me some flexibility in loading for Cape Buffalo... I'd like to be able to push a 510 grain projectile with SD of .350+ at near 2400 FPS.  Gives a ME of around 6500 ft-lb and momentum of about 175 lb-fps.  Yes, I'm aware that ME is more marketing than practical application.. especially in creatures like Cape Buffalo.. but it is a "nice to know".  Bullet design and momentum will be key (with shot placement of course).
I want the advantage the Lott offers.  Still have reservations about the rechambering.  Every 10 minutes or so I change my mind.  I'll finally decide after discussing with the gunsmith.
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
tahqua View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Have You Driven A Ford Lately?

Joined: March/27/2006
Location: Michigan, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 8663
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2019 at 11:32
I wouldn't change a boomer that shot that well, either. The .458 is plenty. If not, for the countless mbogo that have fallen to the .458 for 60 some years, get up you're not dead.

Doug
Back to Top
supertool73 View Drop Down
Optics God
Optics God
Avatar
Superstool

Joined: January/03/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 11435
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2019 at 11:39
I'd just buy the 460 weatherby and keep what you got.  Then you get one more gun out of it.   
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."
Back to Top
tahqua View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Have You Driven A Ford Lately?

Joined: March/27/2006
Location: Michigan, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 8663
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2019 at 11:43
I shot a .460 MarkV, awesome. It had factory porting and had less felt recoil than the non ported. 378 MarkV we had.
Doug
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 21143
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2019 at 11:58
I have the Champlin .378 Weatherby Magnum... guess a .460 to "round it out" wouldn't be out of the question.  Everything I read about it says it is "unnecessary"... which makes me even more interested.

Thank you for the suggestions.  Still thinking... It does make me pause to put a cutting tool to a firearm that is as accurate as I could hope for...

Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
Bigdaddy0381 View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Georgia peach

Joined: February/27/2007
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 13431
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigdaddy0381 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2019 at 12:50
Very Interesting….!,.
 
 
P&Z Firearms , Pro gun cleanings and gun repair and wood refinishing.

Ecclesiastes 10:2
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 21143
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2019 at 14:33
Is that your way of saying I shouldn't rechamber it???
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Resident Redneck

Joined: June/20/2005
Location: Iowa
Status: Offline
Points: 14516
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2019 at 16:23
Which caliber has better availability of ammo in Africa?

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 21143
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2019 at 16:31
Well, the WinMag... most popular caliber in Africa.  However... a .458 Lott will shoot .458 WinMag with no loss in accuracy (overall, this is true... there are exceptions).  A WinMag will not shoot Lott ammo.
.460 Weatherby Mag ammo is hard to find, especially in Africa... but it IS a "whale rifle"...
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 21143
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2019 at 16:44
I read not long ago that "A Cape Buffalo will stand and look you in the eye like you owe him a LOT of money... and he's there to collect".  
A whale gun might be useful...
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
RifleDude View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
EVIL OPPRESSOR

Joined: October/13/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 16050
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2019 at 19:26
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

However... a .458 Lott will shoot .458 WinMag with no loss in accuracy (overall, this is true... there are exceptions). 

Yes, .458 Lott will shoot .458 Win Mag. "With no loss in accuracy?" I highly doubt that. Having .3"+ bullet jump to the lands is never a recipe for accuracy. You might find a specific rifle that does it without seeing a fall-off in precision, but that would be the exception. 
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 21143
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2019 at 19:48
My Lott does it... general commentary from Lott owners is that there is "insignificant detriment to accuracy"... general, but not all, true...
However, significant firing of WinMag ammo in the Lott causes significant decrease in barrel life, so when degradation starts, it is rapid.
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
Bigdaddy0381 View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Georgia peach

Joined: February/27/2007
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 13431
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigdaddy0381 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2019 at 21:12
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Is that your way of saying I shouldn't rechamber it???

Correct, buy a 458LOTT and have that 458WM for a back up. I'm sure they both would play nice side by side on a hunt...wink wink ..Bucky
P&Z Firearms , Pro gun cleanings and gun repair and wood refinishing.

Ecclesiastes 10:2
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 21143
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2019 at 21:27
Yeah, but the .460 Weatherby is a siren... not sure I can resist the call... the song is sweet...
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
RifleDude View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
EVIL OPPRESSOR

Joined: October/13/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 16050
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/16/2019 at 08:35
I wouldn’t bank on there being no loss in accuracy (shooting Win Mag in a Lott chamber) as a factor in the “pro” column affecting your decision, Dan. Anytime you have excess freebore before the lands, it gives the bullet a chance to become skewed, with its center of rotation not on the same axis as the bore centerline. This is never good for accuracy. You might see no degradation in accuracy in a given rifle because there’s always some unexplainable voodoo involved with a given rifle/ammo combination. There’s a reason that shooters loading for ultimate precision always adjust seating depth to get the bullet close to or touching the lands. It ensures the bullet starts out concentric with the bore before being captured by the lands. There’s a loose fit between bullet and chamber throat. There has to be else you couldn’t chamber and extract a live round. A small amount of jump to the lands often doesn’t give the bullet a chance to skew, but .3” is a long jump!

Just saying, don’t bank on that working out well as part of your decision-making process. With any firearm that will fire a shorter, similar dimensioned cartridge than what it’s chambered for, doing so always involves undesirable compromises. Yeah, you can do it, but really...why? The only exception to this is firing a conventional cartridge in an Ackley Improved version of the parent case, because the headspace length and bullet position relative to the lands remains the same.
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 21143
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/16/2019 at 14:35
I met with the gunsmith, talked with him at length about what I wanted... I decided to go ahead and rechamber to .458 Lott.  
The fact that it will shoot .458 WinMag does not play into the equation at all, except the fact that if something should happen to my Lott ammo, WinMag is always available in SA.  
My Ruger #1 has very similar accuracy and precision with either ammo, but I don't shoot much WinMag ammo in it... only did it to test it out.  I do have to rezero with a change from Lott to WinMag and vice versa.  I was surprised a bit, but pleased with the results.  
I have a Ruger #1 in .458 WinMag, so unless I don't have any Lott ammo, there is no need to shoot WinMag through it.  Unless something totally unexpected happens, I have no intention of ever shooting WinMag ammo through the rechambered rifle... except to discover how it shoots with it (I need to know how it will perform before/in case I have to do it).  

Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
supertool73 View Drop Down
Optics God
Optics God
Avatar
Superstool

Joined: January/03/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 11435
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2019 at 08:15
oh geez. Sticking with a squirrel gun when you could have got a 460. How 😢 
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 21143
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2019 at 12:53
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

oh geez. Sticking with a squirrel gun when you could have got a 460. How 😢 
But is a BIG squirrel gun.  The .460 is not off the table, I just decided it is out of my "reach" until I pay off the house.  First priority...
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
Scrumbag View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: October/22/2013
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2182
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scrumbag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2019 at 14:02
You probably don't need a Lott... If the gun shoots well in 458WM and you can shoot it well, I would suggest leaving it alone...

Or, buy a purpose built Lott...

Scrummy
Was sure I had a point when I started this post...
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 21143
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2019 at 21:48
It's already done.  I left it there for rechambering.  I see no downside.
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
Dogger View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight
Avatar

Joined: January/02/2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 5744
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2019 at 04:44
Good on you Dan and good shooting!
God save the Empire!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.430 seconds.