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RMSc - Any feedback?

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ChanceMcCall View Drop Down
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    Posted: September/25/2019 at 22:39
I have a Springfield Armory Hellcat OSP promised to me late next week. SA is recommending a Shield RMSc for it. Frankly, while I know a lot about Springfield Armory I know next to nothing about the red dot they are recommending.

Does anyone have any experience with this optic?

Thanks for any knowledgeable replies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2019 at 23:30
I have a couple.  They work great.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2019 at 09:02
Like Koshkin, I have an RMSc as well as the original RMS (non-compact version). I've had the RMS for about 2 years and the RMSc for only about 6 months. I originally had issues getting the battery tray to open properly on the RMS, but fixed it myself by deburring the plastic tab that retains the tray. The RMSc doesn't have the side-opening battery tray in exchange for its narrower, more compact design. I like the tradeoff for handgun use, as it's very small and unobtrusive.

Other than the battery tray issue on the RMS, I have no real complaints and both work as designed. The dot intensity self-adjusts with changing light conditions as it's supposed to do, battery life seems very good so far, I love how tiny they are, and I really like the fact they incorporate a rear sight notch in the sight body. I've had no issues with mine and would buy another without hesitation. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2019 at 09:11
I don't have the "c" but I have several of the original RMSs, they are my favorite red dot for a handgun. I've run most of the major players' offering in handgun red dots, and the RMS is easily my favorite: good battery life, good dot definition, good dot brightness (self-adjusting), and rear sight notch if the dot fails. Among my very favorite features is the low-profile design, meaning you don't need suppressor-height sites as a backup aiming system. I hate suppressor-height sites, as do my holsters.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2019 at 10:13
I have one RMS and two RMSc sights.  

Original RMS is on a revolver where it replaced the rear sight, so the built in notch is my co-witnessed sight, so to speak.

One RMSc is on a 9mm 1911 where it is a great fit.  Another is on a Glock 43.

I a looking to pick up Sig P365XL at some point which comes from the factory pre-cut for RMSc, so that is where the next one is going to go.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2019 at 11:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2019 at 13:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChanceMcCall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2019 at 14:15
I've been getting some feedback from others I have reached out to that has been very critical of this particular model as far too fragile for serious carry. Lens scratch easy, allergic to moisture, etc. They do say that other larger models are fine however.

They see it as a competition tool or range toy.

Given the price of this optic, I would expect better.

Comments?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2019 at 14:41
The rear notch makes that less a concern - assuming you have a front site post. That said, if it is fragile, I too would avoid it.

I haven't beaten the RMSs to failure, but have run them hard without issues. As said before, I haven't used a "c" yet.

Is the footprint the same for the "c" and the standard RMS?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChanceMcCall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2019 at 16:05
The footprint on the "c" is narrower. Apparently it is built (currently) to different standards than some of their other products.

The "c" is being recommended, in part, because it fits the narrower slide of the gun. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2019 at 17:42
If it overhangs a bit, I doubt you'll care. Especially if the tradeoff is more dependability.
I have a Romeo1, it overhangs bigtime, and that is with a wider Sig slide.

If you are concerned about durability, the the standard.

Also, SA makes good 1911s, probably the very best for a project gun.  My first 1911 was a government, I should.never have gotten  rid of that gun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2019 at 18:14
Originally posted by ChanceMcCall ChanceMcCall wrote:

The footprint on the "c" is narrower. Apparently it is built (currently) to different standards than some of their other products.

The "c" is being recommended, in part, because it fits the narrower slide of the gun. 

I am not so sure that's correct, but I'll find out.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2019 at 19:56
Originally posted by ChanceMcCall ChanceMcCall wrote:

I've been getting some feedback from others I have reached out to that has been very critical of this particular model as far too fragile for serious carry. Lens scratch easy, allergic to moisture, etc. They do say that other larger models are fine however.

They see it as a competition tool or range toy.

Given the price of this optic, I would expect better.

Comments?  

Construction is exactly the same on the RMS and RMSc, except the RMSc is narrower and doesn't have the battery tray that slides out the side (due to it being narrower and not having enough space for a tray). The RMSc isn't "built to a different standard" than the RMS; it's just more compact. If one model is deemed too fragile for serious carry, then so would the other. If anything, the RMSc should be ever so slightly more bulletproof since it eliminates the sliding battery tray.

Lenses on both are polycarbonate, so yes they would scratch easier than a glass lens, but on the flip side, are more impact-resistant. The body on both is machined aluminum alloy, essentially with the same level of robustness as other mini reflex sight bodies. They are not waterproof, though they are water-resistant. I would prefer they were waterproof, but under normal use, I think it's non issue.

Can you give specific examples of how it has failed on someone during use? 


Edited by RifleDude - September/26/2019 at 20:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChanceMcCall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2019 at 09:23
[
  
[/QUOTE]

Construction is exactly the same on the RMS and RMSc, except the RMSc is narrower and doesn't have the battery tray that slides out the side (due to it being narrower and not having enough space for a tray). The RMSc isn't "built to a different standard" than the RMS; it's just more compact. If one model is deemed too fragile for serious carry, then so would the other. If anything, the RMSc should be ever so slightly more bulletproof since it eliminates the sliding battery tray.

Lenses on both are polycarbonate, so yes they would scratch easier than a glass lens, but on the flip side, are more impact-resistant. The body on both is machined aluminum alloy, essentially with the same level of robustness as other mini reflex sight bodies. They are not waterproof, though they are water-resistant. I would prefer they were waterproof, but under normal use, I think it's non issue.

Can you give specific examples of how it has failed on someone during use? 
[/QUOTE]

The RMSw is waterproof according to the manufacturer. The RMSc apparently is not. According to what I have been told (no personal experience) if the red dot overhangs the slide, the waterproofing fails.

The "built to a different standard" refers to the SIS, not the RMS. Apparently the British military use this one extensively. Unfortunately, this is far too large for the slide of the firearm I am looking to have a red dot mounted on, and has many features that do not make sense for a concealed carry handgun.

Failure examples are all anecdotal, and from acquaintances I know who regularly use red dots. I have not been a regular user of red dots with only an Aimpoint mounted on a Ruger Mark IV for rabbit hunting that was previously on a Mark I, so even it is very old.

One guy indicated his had failed while he was handgun hunting in the rain;
Another indicated his failed after dropping his gun to the pavement during a serious social encounter;
Another indicated his failed after falling.

Since none of these situations would have caused my Aimpoint to fail, I became concerned enough to reach out to the experts on this forum for input. I certainly appreciate the input I've gotten so far.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2019 at 12:22
I heard they were introducing a waterproof model, but the "w" version wasn't discussed in the thread thus far. RMS and RMSc are not waterproof, as they don't have the gasket along the edge of the mounting base. Yes, as with any mini red dot that is "waterproof," if the sight is wider than the surface it's mounted onto such that the bottom of the sight isn't completely covered by the mounting surface, the gasket on the bottom cannot seal and it thus isn't waterproof anymore. 

The SIS is an entirely different design than the RMS, so naturally it has different criteria. Whether or not that translates into being "built to a different standard," meaning to a less stringent quality level, I don't know, but I highly doubt it. It is a different design entirely, with totally enclosed LED, unlike not only the RMS family, but all other competing mini reflex sights of similar form like the Trijicon RMR, Docter, Leupold Deltapoint, Burris Fastfire, etc. Sure, SIS would likely be a more durable optic for hard use because of this, but the tradeoff is less compactness. This doesn't mean the RMS/RMSc/RMSw is unsuited for concealed carry. It depends on what you value the most - compactness or ultimate "to hell and back" durability. Every design is the result of intentionally making tradeoffs deemed acceptable to gain some other desirable characteristic, and some designs are better suited to different uses than others.

A non-waterproof optic is indeed subject to failing if used in the rain, depending on the setup and how it was exposed to the water. Just shooting it in the rain likely won't prevent a problem most of the time, but if it gets submerged or water manages to get underneath the base, you're likely to have a problem. This applies to most mini reflex sights, as most are open on the bottom for battery replacement. This is the necessary tradeoff to achieve low profile height and overall compactness.

I'm sure dropping your sidearm and having it land on the sight is pretty hard on any mini reflex sight, and whether it survives the incident would depend on the severity of the drop, the surface it impacted, and the location of impact. Whether an Aimpoint would fail under the same circumstances is unknown unless you subjected both to the exact same condition, and unless you witnessed the incidents, you will never know. Mini reflex sights in general probably won't be as durable as an Aimpoint or perhaps some other larger enclosed red dot sights, but it's really not a fair comparison. They are entirely different categories of red dot sights and have different design intents. Sacrifices have to be made in order to achieve the design goal of being extremely compact and suitable for use on small handguns.

I haven't put my RMS through hard use. Mine reside on range guns. They may very well be more fragile than competing designs, I don't know. A polycarbonate lens is indeed more susceptible to scratching than a glass lens, no doubt about it. Whether or not that is a problem for you depends on the conditions you subject the sight to. 

I own and have used multiple different mini reflex sights, and I don't perceive the RMS/RMSc to be any more fragile than any other mini reflex sight. Yeah, I'll go out on a limb and tell you right now, the RMSc won't be as durable as an Aimpoint. But then, no Aimpoint made is as tiny, not even the Acro, none are as "holster friendly," and none allow co-witnessing with iron sights. It all comes down to which tradeoffs you're willing to make to gain which other benefits.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2019 at 14:42
Wait, you want a site the size and price of a RMS and want it to do what an aimpoint does? If so, we need to reset expectations.

As said before, if it fails, you have irons. If you decide not to use one, you have irons. In my view - and my primary carry gun wears an RMS - a failure is, in the moment, a zero-sum issue. And if it does not fail, there is a huge plus sign tilting things in my favor.

Will said 1911 be a range gun or a carry gun?

If the expectation is to add a red dot and go, that is not reasonable. Moving from irons to red dot is a lot like going from automatic transmission to standard: you understand the concept, but the muscle memory takes some doing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2019 at 12:37
I asked Shield if any of their products are built to a different standard.  I seriously doubt that they are.  

I do have the original SIS that I have done some exceedingly nasty things to and it still works like a charm.  RC and I disagree on how some of the illumination levels are calibrated and all, but in terms of build quality I will put the SIS against anything on the market today.

As far as RMS goes and the screen scratching goes, they use plastic windows for durability reasons (SIS window is also plastic).  Glass shatters.  High density plastic does not.  Most compact red dots on the market, if you drop them the right way, will end up with a shattered window.  RMR works around it by using a larger and weirdly shaped housing that provides more shock absorption.  Shield wanted to make the smallest possible housing, which I happened to like, so they used a high density composite material for the window.  If you ever wonder how tough optical grade composites can be, keep in mind that all those shooting glasses that can take a shotgun blast are made of similar materials.

The blanket statement "none of those would make my Aimpoint fail" is somewhat problematic.  I have seen products from just about every manufacturer give up the ghost.  This kind of stuff happens with all man made things.  I've seen a T1 crap out.  I've seen a T2 shift POA by a few feet at 20 yards all of a sudden.  I've seen Trijicon RMRs with screens virtually falling out after a few shots. And the list goes on.  That does not mean Aimpoint and Trijicon make unreliable products.  That just means that statistically, something will sneak through the QC with every manufacturer once in a while.

I will add though that as Shield sights started gaining more popularity in the US in the last couple of years, all of a sudden I see a good number of dealers heavily invested into Trijicon RMR, start saying bad things about Shield.  Interestingly, the same people absolutely loved the original Trijicon red dot years ago when Shield was OEM'ing it for Trijicon (copy of Shield SMS).

Composite windows do scratch more easily than glass although modern hard coatings help a lot.  The scratching usually happens from improper cleaning.  I have only had one RMSc window get damaged and it was from corrosive fluids that were a carryover from nitrocarburizing process done to the slide.  The whole sight got soaked with the corrosive stuff and the window was damaged.  However, the dot still works fine and all the electronics are packaged well enough to be totally fine.

RMSw is kinda new, so I have not messed with it yet outside of SHOT Show.  I will try to get my hands on it soon and see how it does.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2019 at 18:33
Incidentally, the RMSc is the only red dot sight that will even fit on he Hellcat slide (at present), so it’s either that or iron sights.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluehorseshoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2019 at 10:48
Does anyone know where an RMSc 4/8 MOA can be purchased - seems they're all sold out anywhere I go? Also, are they generic and come with custom plates to sit underneath, or are there versions where they're specifically made for a particular gun model? Thanks in advance for any help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2019 at 11:16
RMSc has been very successful for them, so it is not easy to find unfortunately.

They just made a narrower version of their plastic bodied SMS as well, called SMSc.  It seems to have the same footprint as the aluminum bodies RMSc, but costs less.

I just received the SMSc and RMSw (regular width RMS that is waterproof), so I will be playing with them.

Both SMS and RMS have the same footprint that is also shared with JPoint.  They make adapter plates for a variety of guns, including an adapter plate to put RMS or SMS onto a gun set up for Trijicon's RMR.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluehorseshoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2019 at 12:58
Do you know if the RMSc is standard with different plates beneath? I went to a site that has one, but is 'specific' for the Glock G43. Shows a plate underneath, and I'd like to get an RMSc for the Hellcat I just ordered. Thanks in advance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2019 at 13:20
Originally posted by bluehorseshoe bluehorseshoe wrote:

Do you know if the RMSc is standard with different plates beneath? I went to a site that has one, but is 'specific' for the Glock G43. Shows a plate underneath, and I'd like to get an RMSc for the Hellcat I just ordered. Thanks in advance.

I do not understand what "standard with different plates beneath" means.  RMSc does not come with any plates.  Some guns come with different mounting pates to fit different sights.  The mounting plate designs for Jpoint and Shield sights will work in those cases.

RMSc fits the same mounting pattern as the rest of Shield RMS and SMS series sights.

Hellcat is precut for it, so any of the RMS and SMS sights will fit.  However SMS, RMS and RMSw will overhang the sides a little bit, while SMSc and RMSc will fit the width of the slide.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluehorseshoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2019 at 15:16
Thanks. You answered my question. 

The Glock 43 has a plate for the RMSc that sits 'beneath' (under) the scope for mounting, however Glock 'advertises' the RMSc it as custom for the G43. The only thing that's 'custom' that I can tell is the mounting plate necessary in order for it to sit on the slide.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2019 at 15:33
Originally posted by bluehorseshoe bluehorseshoe wrote:

Thanks. You answered my question. 

The Glock 43 has a plate for the RMSc that sits 'beneath' (under) the scope for mounting, however Glock 'advertises' the RMSc it as custom for the G43. The only thing that's 'custom' that I can tell is the mounting plate necessary in order for it to sit on the slide.

Yes, that is correct.  The plate comes from Glock.

Shield does have their own adapter plate for the MOS Glock guns that allows co-witnessing with standard height iron sights, but that is typically used with full width RMS.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2019 at 16:37
Not Glock-related, but Shield does make a special thin plate for their sights to fit the Walther PPQ4 & Q5 Match series pistols. It provides a much lower mount height than the plate supplied by Walther. 
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