OpticsTalk by SWFA, Inc. Homepage SWFA     SampleList.com
Forum Home Forum Home > Firearms, Bows, and Ammunition > Reloading & Ballistics
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Standard Primers versus Magnum Primers
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Visit the SWFA.com site to check out our current specials.

Standard Primers versus Magnum Primers

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
8shots View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight
Avatar
Lord Of The Flies

Joined: March/14/2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 6167
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8shots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Standard Primers versus Magnum Primers
    Posted: June/24/2019 at 01:45
Does anyone have actual experience of the effect of these two primer types on ballistics?
Has anyone only varied the primer from Standard to Magnum (or the other way around) and measured such things as velocity, grouping/accuracy or point of impact?

I have Googled this and only found theories and "maybe this and maybe that".

If you have some actual data care to share???

Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 21671
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/24/2019 at 20:00
I take anything I think about primers with a grain of salt, but based upon the recent research I've been doing (here goes the "art" part):
1) use "standard" primers for anything below 60 grains of powder, Magnum primers for 60 grains powder and above.  Using a standard primer with the appropriate powder/case/bullet is fine, just don't use it for powder loads above 60 grains.  
2) If you change primer types (Remington to CCI, CCI to Winchester and so on, and so on, and so on) all your load data is useless for accuracy purposes... basically, start over.  Manufacturer's differences are such that any consistency you developed with one manufacturer primer/type is useless for another manufacturer primer/type.  

All I can say for sure is that there is little agreement on almost anything related to hand loading.  "Just because it's marked "Match" doesn't mean it's better... but it MIGHT be".  Don't remember where I read that, but I do remember the statement.  
Most statements on hand loading remind me of Treebeard's statement to Pippin on heading south (Lord of the Rings... The Two Towers, after Pippin said "the closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm")... "Well, that doesn't make sense to me, but you are very small".  
Science is a lost art...
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
Son of Ed View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar

Joined: June/18/2011
Location: TEXAS
Status: Offline
Points: 76202
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Son of Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/24/2019 at 20:04
I used Magnum primers with a 270 Winchester and they worked great.....





Visit the Ed Show
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 21671
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/24/2019 at 20:52
And you can use small rifle primers in .308... and will usually work great... given that other load elements are correct for primer/powder.  It's an art... black art...

JUST FOR CLARITY... i thought about this post and realized that some people intentionally or unconsciously take everything literally... you must have .308 cases that are sized for small rifle primers for them to work.  Don't try putting a small rifle primer in a standard case... even if it might seem to fit, it doesn't.  There are, to me, a number of reasons to NOT use SRPs in .308, but some people do.  
I love explosions, but only those I plan.


Edited by Kickboxer - June/24/2019 at 21:19
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
Longhunter View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: February/02/2006
Status: Offline
Points: 462
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Longhunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/24/2019 at 23:13
Excellent question!  Obviously, the only safe recommendation (and the only safe thing to do) is to stick with the loading manuals.

However, there are other thoughts out there in shooting and reloading magazines (and previously on one ammo-maker's web-site).

I personally have tried standard instead of magnum primers in my .338 Win Mag..  The standard primers were significantly more accurate almost every time with the normally recommended powders and loads I used.  (Stick powders, and not spherical powders.)  Point of impact stayed pretty much the same.  I didn't have a chronograph, but back-to-back shots showed identical recoil for all practical purposes.

One very important point:   I do not use compressed loads, and do not fill cases to 100% capacity.

CAVEAT:  Read paragraph (1) again!
   


Edited by Longhunter - June/25/2019 at 00:52
Back to Top
8shots View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight
Avatar
Lord Of The Flies

Joined: March/14/2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 6167
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8shots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2019 at 01:01
Thank you all for this info. I am currently loading 65 grains of South African Powder (Somchem) using a CCI Magnum primer with a 200gr Sierra Gameking (300H&H)
What Longhunter said above: I now also want to try the CCI Standard to see if shot to shot accuracy improves.

Back to Top
JGRaider View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master


Joined: February/06/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1539
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JGRaider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2019 at 07:34
I've used magnum primers in my 7mm08 when using ball powders like Ramshot Big Game.    Made a difference, as groups tightened up as compared to the  identical loads with regular large rifle primers.  
Back to Top
8shots View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight
Avatar
Lord Of The Flies

Joined: March/14/2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 6167
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8shots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2019 at 09:06
The powder I am using is slow burning extruded. 
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 21671
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2019 at 19:31
Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

Thank you all for this info. I am currently loading 65 grains of South African Powder (Somchem) using a CCI Magnum primer with a 200gr Sierra Gameking (300H&H)
What Longhunter said above: I now also want to try the CCI Standard to see if shot to shot accuracy improves.


I'm working up loads for 300 H&H now... pretty much as I type.  I'm not "there", yet.  Getting some very good accuracy, but velocities are below expected.  Can't figure that out.

I called and talked to an old friend who does this for a living... creates, loads and tests ammo every day of his life.  His comment was that if you are using "standard" primers in magnum loads, you are playing on the edges.  Temperature changes can wreak havoc, but if you are getting very good, consistent results... .  Large rifle primers are designed for powder loads in the 60 grain/below load range... up to 65 grains is probably not TOO much (there goes that art again), but once again... on the edges.  Magnum primers are made for powder loads greater than 60 grains.  It's a matter of the "burn" properties.  Some people shoot in very consistent environmental conditions... all the time.  Sucker won't give me any load data... says "you work it out... you'll thank me."   Gives me advice on everything I'm doing wrong... everything...I'm doing WRONG.   Funny guy...

Certainly, I don't believe in strict adherence to the manuals.  They are guides, good guides, but not gospel.  And... few of them agree on any of the load parameters (other than sizing specs).  I think they are a fantastic marketing tool... "if you change primers, start over... if you change powder lots, start over... if you change bullet manufacturers, start over... if you change case manufacturers, start over... if the temperature varies by 10 degrees, START OVER...  Can buy several cases of ammo just on the do-overs...  If you sleep for more than 2 hours, start over...
Hand loading sure is fun... I wonder WHY I ever gave it up...
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
Longhunter View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: February/02/2006
Status: Offline
Points: 462
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Longhunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2019 at 21:32
If it helps, the primers I used in my .338 Win Mag were Winchester Large Rifle (i.e, regular primers) and Federal No. 215 Magnum Large Rifle (magnum primers). 
Back to Top
8shots View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight
Avatar
Lord Of The Flies

Joined: March/14/2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 6167
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8shots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2019 at 02:04
Thanks, the mud is becoming a little bit clearer now.
I have used Magnum CCI 250 primers on my 300H&H for the past 15 years.
The powder manufacturer manual however states CCI 200 Primer.

As on my other thread I am suddenly experiencing accuracy issues. (It is not the barrel shot out)

One issue we have in South Africa is a large batch variation. I have bought new powder for my current loading and it is most likely a batch issue.

I thought that whilst finding the correct load I may try the CCI200 primer as per the manufacturer.



Back to Top
Steelbenz View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight
Avatar
ROLL TIDE ROLL

Joined: January/03/2006
Location: Heart of Dixie
Status: Offline
Points: 5152
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steelbenz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2019 at 19:06

Here is a primers as the control group table I clipped out of a reloading magazine years ago. 
"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"
Back to Top
tejas View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman


Joined: March/08/2010
Location: Lone Star State
Status: Offline
Points: 450
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2019 at 23:17
    I read somewhere that cartridges that use a long powder column benefit more from magnum primers,  than cartridges that use a short compact powder column. The actual powder amount, matters less than the column shape. With that said, powder type is also a factor. The slower the burn speed, the more need for magnum primers. 
   I have both a 270 and a 300 WSM. I don’t use magnum primers in either. I’m in Texas. If I lived in Canada or somewhere cold, maybe I would. I don’t own a .300 H&H but I’m guessing that it would benefit from a magnum primer if your using a fairly slow extruded powder and especially if your firing a heavy bullet. To me, a .30 caliber 200 grain bullet falls in that category. 
   As KB mentioned though, nobody ever agrees about issues regarding reloading. Let me also add this: If you change one little thing from your normal load data, you can expect a disproportionate change in where your bullet impacts and your group sizes.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.246 seconds.