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Sig Echo1

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Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sig Echo1
    Posted: June/06/2017 at 18:43
There is good and bad, but we'll start with initial thoughts. It will get rung out this week as we kill some murderous raccoons.


1. It is quirky on start-up, likes to die if you don't hold the button down well into the splash screen.

2. Inside about 30 feet, it is all but useless unless target is 150 degrees and background is 0 Kelvin.

3. It is fat, hard to run a useful red dot or other offset.

4. It eats batteries like a fat man eats fried chicken.

5. Resolution is meh...

6. More to follow.

It will be - for the weekend - mounted on an integrally suppressed 22LR. Backup will be a 300WTF, suppressed, with PEQ15, or as others might call it, "death-on-a-stick."

Edited by Rancid Coolaid - June/08/2017 at 12:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2017 at 06:23
OK, you've got my attention.  Pictures after the weekend would be nice.  I have some coons as well that are in need of a little retroactive birth control - good luck
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2017 at 11:42
Probably not, at this price point, but do you know if the array is gold black coated?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2017 at 13:44
It isn't.

I do not think any commercial microbolometers have that as standard.  It is not a simple or an inexpensive process.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2017 at 20:58
A little over two years ago I was able to observe some experimentation in the process. The coating process did not seem overly laborious (of course there are some non-recurring startup costs that must be taken into consideration), especially when compared to the increase in responsivity with no negative impact on noise signature.   Just wondered if perhaps the "barrier" had been breached...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2017 at 23:28
Not yet.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/08/2017 at 04:12
Too bad.  When the pricing comes down, it will be "the thing"...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/08/2017 at 06:46
Originally posted by Dogger Dogger wrote:

OK, you've got my attention.  Pictures after the weekend would be nice.  I have some coons as well that are in need of a little retroactive birth control - good luck

Hahaha....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/08/2017 at 10:55
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Too bad.  When the pricing comes down, it will be "the thing"...

I do not know about that.  The biggest improvement you get with gold black coating is in the mid-wave, while all the inexpensive lenses are in the long wave.  It does give you some improvement in the long wave, but not quite as much and some of it is offset by a higher thermal constant.

On the flip-side of the coin, patterning this coating for standard bridge style microbolometers can get a little tricky and some early indications suggest that it does not do too well at high temp.  I talked to a couple of guys at Plasmonics a little bit a while back (one of them did his PhD thesis on it) and while clearly a significant improvement over the standard VOX, I would not expect it to be a huge deal for commercial sights.  It IS a big deal for the future of uncooled two color systems.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/08/2017 at 12:37
Whatever all that means, I'm just a dumb ol' Marine that wants a decent look at a thing before I loose the gods of war on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/08/2017 at 12:50
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Whatever all that means, I'm just a dumb ol' Marine that wants a decent look at a thing before I loose the gods of war on it.

Sorry about that.  These are the things I work with for a living, so I figured I should answer Dan's question.

I hate to break it to you, but if you want a "decent look" you may have to spend a little more than Echo1, or wait until prices come down a little more.  I am up to speed on most new companies that work in this and it's coming.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/08/2017 at 13:45
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Whatever all that means, I'm just a dumb ol' Marine that wants a decent look at a thing before I loose the gods of war on it.

Sorry about that.  These are the things I work with for a living, so I figured I should answer Dan's question.

I hate to break it to you, but if you want a "decent look" you may have to spend a little more than Echo1, or wait until prices come down a little more.  I am up to speed on most new companies that work in this and it's coming.

ILya
Results I saw indicated significant improvement in both LWIR and MWIR. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/08/2017 at 15:08
Relative absorptance improvement in MWIR is around 90%.  In LWIR, it is around 25-35%.  That is counteracted by a 15% or so increase in resistivity.
Perception is logarithmic, so MWIR is where this makes a difference.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/08/2017 at 16:11
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Relative absorptance improvement in MWIR is around 90%.  In LWIR, it is around 25-35%.  That is counteracted by a 15% or so increase in resistivity.
Perception is logarithmic, so MWIR is where this makes a difference.

ILya

This is from the test report:

 Thus, the absorptance 1-R  of the gold black film is 70% in the long-wave IR with a peak of 93%

at 9.4 μ m, and it is 84% in the mid-wave IR with a peak of 94% at 3 μ m.


As you stated, perception is logarithmic.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/08/2017 at 17:21
Untreated VOX has absorptance of ~45%in MWIR and ~70% in LWIR.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/09/2017 at 00:37
Here is a report, funded by the Army Research Lab, I was sent the link to:


It is not all inclusive, but makes the case.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/09/2017 at 11:17
The paper comes out of Evan's PhD thesis that I've read. It is an excellent thesis and my original point remains. Just look at the difference in reflectance between LWIR and MWIR.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonoMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/09/2017 at 15:01
Reaction time is a factor...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/09/2017 at 19:51
The raccoons are working on a tank, I think…

I've not seen the thesis, but I've seen some additional research...

From the paper:

SUMMARY:

 We have successfully patterned oxide-hardened gold black on a vanadium oxide bolometer using standard lift-off

techniques. Measurements of these detectors show that the detector responsivity increases by 43% due to the increased absorption. Noise is unchanged. The time constant increases by 14%. In addition to increased signal and detectivity over a specific bandwidth, the addition of gold black absorbers negates the need for specific cavity spacing and increases the detector bandwidth, allowing for both mid-wave IR and long-wave IR capabilities.


There are interesting possibilities.  Is it a final product? No.  Is further research warranted? Yes.  If the Sig Echo1 had gold black coatings on its array, I'd probably buy one.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/09/2017 at 20:06
Dammit, you guys are killing my buzz!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/09/2017 at 21:07
Don't let anything I've said "kill your buzz".  The Echo 1 is probably a good option right now, seems to have decent performance.  I'm thinking of the future.  Hoping for that next big "leap"...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonoMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/10/2017 at 09:52
Forget fancy optics. You've got to eat like a coon, think like a coon, live like a coon, be the coon.

Or, if you're not into all that procyonic crap just throw a carcass of something riddled with distemper out where they can get at it. Although when the raccoons died out in my former Colorado Springs neighborhood the vacant ecological niche was promptly filled by skunks, which promptly sprayed my dog.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/10/2017 at 16:30
I've never played with the Sig Echo1, but I do have the FLIR RS32 1.25-5X thermal sight that I bought from Ilya back in December. I had to get used to the fact that compared to conventional optics, resolution is very low, but the power of thermal is in detection, not displaying fine details and tack sharp images. For its intended purpose -- revealing anything living and enabling shots at same in complete darkness-- thermal is way superior to conventional I2 night vision. I've been hog hunting at night with it exclusively ever since I got it, and the thing is simply DEADLY! It's mounted on a Kimber Adirondack in .300 BLK, (I preferred eliminating the bolt carrier noise of an AR over follow-up shot speed), a rig I've affectionately dubbed "The Reaper." I'm currently waiting for my Sig SRD762TIQD suppressor to be released from federal prison, at which point The Reaper will be even deadlier! I've had to accept the fact the .300 BLK subs and the optic limit my effective range to not much beyond 100 yds, but that's fine. This rig has been so much fun and is so effective within its limitations, I will never again hunt feral hogs any other way! 

Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/10/2017 at 16:35
Thermal kicks a$$:


Ted


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