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R700 .458 Winchester Magnum...

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    Posted: November/01/2019 at 18:06
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

I wouldn’t bank on there being no loss in accuracy (shooting Win Mag in a Lott chamber) as a factor in the “pro” column affecting your decision, Dan. Anytime you have excess freebore before the lands, it gives the bullet a chance to become skewed, with its center of rotation not on the same axis as the bore centerline. This is never good for accuracy. You might see no degradation in accuracy in a given rifle because there’s always some unexplainable voodoo involved with a given rifle/ammo combination. There’s a reason that shooters loading for ultimate precision always adjust seating depth to get the bullet close to or touching the lands. It ensures the bullet starts out concentric with the bore before being captured by the lands. There’s a loose fit between bullet and chamber throat. There has to be else you couldn’t chamber and extract a live round. A small amount of jump to the lands often doesn’t give the bullet a chance to skew, but .3” is a long jump!

Just saying, don’t bank on that working out well as part of your decision-making process. With any firearm that will fire a shorter, similar dimensioned cartridge than what it’s chambered for, doing so always involves undesirable compromises. Yeah, you can do it, but really...why? The only exception to this is firing a conventional cartridge in an Ackley Improved version of the parent case, because the headspace length and bullet position relative to the lands remains the same.

I re-read an article written in 1984 for Handloader's Digest (Tenth Edition) by Jack Lott discussing his buffalo hunt that resulted in his decision to build the .458 Lott.  It details his testing and testing done by several world-renowned gunsmiths and professional hunters.  
The buffalo he shot first at 40 yards with a soft point 500 grain bullet, said he held the shot too long and just as the fired the buffalo spun left and took the bullet in the ribs and into the paunch.  The second was a steel jacketed solid 500 grain that hit the shoulder, but hit bone and deflected.  By then the bull was on him from behind and knocked the rifle from his hands and he was tossed three times and hit him with the central horn boss (which probably saved his life).  The PH fired seven rounds of 300 grain .375 H&H with excellent precision into the bull, but it did not go down.  He grabbed Lott's rifle, checked to see it was loaded and fired a soft nose into the bull's neck.  No joy.  He cycled the last round, jacketed solid, and fired into the buffalo's brain box, putting him down.  11 rounds from the two best rated "dangerous game rifles" on the continent.  After he recovered from his injuries, Lott started work on the .458 Large which became the .458 Lott.  Long story short, over about 10 months he and a couple of high caliber gunsmiths built and tested 10 .458 Lott rifles (rechambered from .458 WinMag).  He specifically designed the .458 Lott to enable accurate shooting of the .458 WinMag ammo.  Below are two sets of his original test targets:

The top target is .458 WinMag, the bottom .458 Lott.


The left target is from .458 Lott, the right .458 WinMag

With 10 rifles, several different gunsmiths and PH's, two of the rifles presented 25% larger groupings with the WinMag ammo than with the Lott ammo.  8 of 10, 80% showed groupings of same size or less with Win Mag ammo over Lott ammo.  The "beauty" of the Lott is that it can easily be loaded to what the buffalo hunters consider "the magic numbers" of 500 grain bullet pushing 2350 fps at "safe" pressures.   One of Jack Lott's test rifles, and his stated favorite, was Ruger #1 .458 WinMag rechambered to .458 Lott (which he rechambered with a hand reamer). 
Weatherby has always built its rifles with a long free space as a crucial factor in the design.


Edited by Kickboxer - November/01/2019 at 18:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2019 at 19:20
Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:


500 NE   Double Rifle?

The time it takes to cycle the bolt can cost your life.


I've always wanted a double rifle... can't justify the price to myself.  

I would not be hunting a lion, but that guy did not seem really familiar with his hardware.  However... chicks dig scars, pain heals... glory lasts forever...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2019 at 19:11
Originally posted by Longhunter Longhunter wrote:

Regarding the .460 Weatherby Magnum, I thought you might find this interesting.
Colonel Charles Askins wrote about shooting cape buffalo with this rifle in the December 1989 issue of Guns magazine:

"Thirty years ago I jouneyed off to Uganda....I had with me Mike Hissey, my favorite hunter, and in my hands I had the .460 Weatherby Magnum.....  In those days you could shoot six buffalo and that is what Hissey and I set out to do.

We'd find a herd oof bovines and then we'd get down on hands and knees and approach through the tall grass until we were within 40 yards of the old herd bull.  I would spank him through the shoulders with 500 grains of the hottest lead.  This went on until we'd accounted for the six bulls we were allotted.  Not in one case did I kill a buffalo with one shot.  Invariably my bull, though plunked through the shoulders at 40 yards, would get up and try to run away.... Not a single bull escaped, but in no case did a single round from the .460 suffice to anchor the game.

This is not intended to disparage the .460, the world's most powerful cartridge; it is simply mentioned to point up the fact that old Syncerus caffir is a really tough cookie!"

Good hunting!       
Thank you for the great story.  I know the resilience of the Cape Buffalo and have great respect for that creature.  Ha... maybe the moral of the story is "never take a whale gun on a Cape Buffalo hunt..." I might use that...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2019 at 16:52

500 NE   Double Rifle?

The time it takes to cycle the bolt can cost your life.



Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - October/18/2019 at 16:58

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Longhunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2019 at 15:43
Regarding the .460 Weatherby Magnum, I thought you might find this interesting.
Colonel Charles Askins wrote about shooting cape buffalo with this rifle in the December 1989 issue of Guns magazine:

"Thirty years ago I journeyed off to Uganda....I had with me Mike Hissey, my favorite hunter, and in my hands I had the .460 Weatherby Magnum.....  In those days you could shoot six buffalo and that is what Hissey and I set out to do.

We'd find a herd of bovines and then we'd get down on hands and knees and approach through the tall grass until we were within 40 yards of the old herd bull.  I would spank him through the shoulders with 500 grains of the hottest lead.  This went on until we'd accounted for the six bulls we were allotted.  Not in one case did I kill a buffalo with one shot.  Invariably my bull, though plunked through the shoulders at 40 yards, would get up and try to run away.... Not a single bull escaped, but in no case did a single round from the .460 suffice to anchor the game.

This is not intended to disparage the .460, the world's most powerful cartridge; it is simply mentioned to point up the fact that old Syncerus caffir is a really tough cookie!"

Good hunting!       


Edited by Longhunter - October/18/2019 at 22:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2019 at 14:46
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

You shouldn't have any issues at all, Dan. It's a very straightforward reamer job, just lengthening the existing chamber. The case taper is the same between .458 Lott and .458 Win mag, and there is no case shoulder; the rounds for both headspace solely on the belt. With a floating reamer holder, it basically self-pilots, so it's hard to screw up. If it takes 10 minutes from start to completion, I'd be very surprised. It takes longer to setup the job than to do the actual work. 

That's what he said.  
When a rifle shoots really well, there is always some consternation about doing anything to it that might impact that.  I believe this is a good choice, though.

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You shouldn't have any issues at all, Dan. It's a very straightforward reamer job, just lengthening the existing chamber. The case taper is the same between .458 Lott and .458 Win mag, and there is no case shoulder; the rounds for both headspace solely on the belt. With a floating reamer holder, it basically self-pilots, so it's hard to screw up. If it takes 10 minutes from start to completion, I'd be very surprised. It takes longer to setup the job than to do the actual work. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2019 at 12:15
Thank you.  I, too, hope it works out well!!!  However, the smith made me a promise that made rechamber a very desirable approach.  He does not do a high volume in rechambers... only averages about 1 a day, but has done as many as 72 in a month and last 3 months has done an average of 60 per month... I believe I was fortunate to find him.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scrumbag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2019 at 10:58
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

It's already done.  I left it there for rechambering.  I see no downside.


Then I hope it works out well for you buddy!
Was sure I had a point when I started this post...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2019 at 08:45
She is already designing the storage locations(for optimum accessibility) in the new shop I'm on the hook for...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2019 at 08:29
Absolutely Dan, gotta save some bucks for fine whisky and cigars.............oh, and some new tools for Lori.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2019 at 08:17
Originally posted by Dogger Dogger wrote:

Good on you Dan and good shooting!

Thank you, sir.  I believe it is a good move... If it doesn't turn out well, I'll just have to rebarrel... which is still way less than purchasing a .460 Weatherby at this time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2019 at 04:44
Good on you Dan and good shooting!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2019 at 21:48
It's already done.  I left it there for rechambering.  I see no downside.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scrumbag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2019 at 14:02
You probably don't need a Lott... If the gun shoots well in 458WM and you can shoot it well, I would suggest leaving it alone...

Or, buy a purpose built Lott...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2019 at 12:53
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

oh geez. Sticking with a squirrel gun when you could have got a 460. How 😢 
But is a BIG squirrel gun.  The .460 is not off the table, I just decided it is out of my "reach" until I pay off the house.  First priority...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2019 at 08:15
oh geez. Sticking with a squirrel gun when you could have got a 460. How 😢 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/16/2019 at 14:35
I met with the gunsmith, talked with him at length about what I wanted... I decided to go ahead and rechamber to .458 Lott.  
The fact that it will shoot .458 WinMag does not play into the equation at all, except the fact that if something should happen to my Lott ammo, WinMag is always available in SA.  
My Ruger #1 has very similar accuracy and precision with either ammo, but I don't shoot much WinMag ammo in it... only did it to test it out.  I do have to rezero with a change from Lott to WinMag and vice versa.  I was surprised a bit, but pleased with the results.  
I have a Ruger #1 in .458 WinMag, so unless I don't have any Lott ammo, there is no need to shoot WinMag through it.  Unless something totally unexpected happens, I have no intention of ever shooting WinMag ammo through the rechambered rifle... except to discover how it shoots with it (I need to know how it will perform before/in case I have to do it).  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/16/2019 at 08:35
I wouldn’t bank on there being no loss in accuracy (shooting Win Mag in a Lott chamber) as a factor in the “pro” column affecting your decision, Dan. Anytime you have excess freebore before the lands, it gives the bullet a chance to become skewed, with its center of rotation not on the same axis as the bore centerline. This is never good for accuracy. You might see no degradation in accuracy in a given rifle because there’s always some unexplainable voodoo involved with a given rifle/ammo combination. There’s a reason that shooters loading for ultimate precision always adjust seating depth to get the bullet close to or touching the lands. It ensures the bullet starts out concentric with the bore before being captured by the lands. There’s a loose fit between bullet and chamber throat. There has to be else you couldn’t chamber and extract a live round. A small amount of jump to the lands often doesn’t give the bullet a chance to skew, but .3” is a long jump!

Just saying, don’t bank on that working out well as part of your decision-making process. With any firearm that will fire a shorter, similar dimensioned cartridge than what it’s chambered for, doing so always involves undesirable compromises. Yeah, you can do it, but really...why? The only exception to this is firing a conventional cartridge in an Ackley Improved version of the parent case, because the headspace length and bullet position relative to the lands remains the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2019 at 21:27
Yeah, but the .460 Weatherby is a siren... not sure I can resist the call... the song is sweet...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigdaddy0381 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2019 at 21:12
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Is that your way of saying I shouldn't rechamber it???

Correct, buy a 458LOTT and have that 458WM for a back up. I'm sure they both would play nice side by side on a hunt...wink wink ..Bucky
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2019 at 19:48
My Lott does it... general commentary from Lott owners is that there is "insignificant detriment to accuracy"... general, but not all, true...
However, significant firing of WinMag ammo in the Lott causes significant decrease in barrel life, so when degradation starts, it is rapid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2019 at 19:26
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

However... a .458 Lott will shoot .458 WinMag with no loss in accuracy (overall, this is true... there are exceptions). 

Yes, .458 Lott will shoot .458 Win Mag. "With no loss in accuracy?" I highly doubt that. Having .3"+ bullet jump to the lands is never a recipe for accuracy. You might find a specific rifle that does it without seeing a fall-off in precision, but that would be the exception. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2019 at 16:44
I read not long ago that "A Cape Buffalo will stand and look you in the eye like you owe him a LOT of money... and he's there to collect".  
A whale gun might be useful...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/15/2019 at 16:31
Well, the WinMag... most popular caliber in Africa.  However... a .458 Lott will shoot .458 WinMag with no loss in accuracy (overall, this is true... there are exceptions).  A WinMag will not shoot Lott ammo.
.460 Weatherby Mag ammo is hard to find, especially in Africa... but it IS a "whale rifle"...
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