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will rain and high humidity.....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/15/2013 at 17:52
Once again, you are completely wrong and in the wrong frame of reference.
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/15/2013 at 17:53
ILya PLEASE help us under achievers out over here.  Your use and command of the English language far supersedes any of ours.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/15/2013 at 18:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/15/2013 at 18:23

338 bullets of course.... .80+ BCE
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/15/2013 at 19:28
Guys, I am in Dulles airport with phenomenally slow internet connection, so I am not sure if this post will make it through.

Unlike some super experienced hunters out there, I find terminology to be supremely important.  Words have meaning and precision of expression is superbly important.

The moment the bullet leaves the confines of the barrel it starts accelerating to the local center of mass, which is typically very close to the center of the earth.  The moon does have its effect since it is the second largest mass nearby and depending on the position of the moon, the actual force imparted on the bullet is pointing to some point very close to the center of mass of the Earth, but not exactly coinciding with it.

The word "fall" is not very well defined unless you specify what it is falling with respect to.  The conventional usage of the word fall refers to falling with respect to the Earth, so if the bullet was fired upwards, it will not start falling until it reaches its highest point.

However, if you specify a specific frame of reference, you can say that it is always falling.  For example, it is always falling with respect to the bore axis (unless you have a pencil barrel rifle the whip of which can screw that up too).

When you consider the instant when the bullet leaves the barrel keep in mind that the muzzle can in fact be pointed somewhat upward when it releases the bullet, depending on the specific barrel harmonics.

As far as the rain and humidity go, humidity decreases air density.  Rain introduces particles.  Two different effects.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/15/2013 at 19:37
LOUD AND CLEAR THANK YOU 

ILya...

It is the particulate matter mass that I am referring too...  To Original Poster as per the intro to the ???'s

"was wondering if rain, low temperatures and high humidity have any effect on bullet speed..does it cause drag or does the bullet and its shockwave clear a path..."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/15/2013 at 19:40
I never said Fall (I don't believe I did)...Wait uhm... I tried to mis quote you and said it...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/15/2013 at 20:03
First and foremost, I pulled a Raider, for which I am supremely sorry - I made a HUGE mistake, I meant parallel but put in perpendicular, and that probably caused MUCH of the confusion.

Having cleared that up, ILya said basically the same thing I did, and we are right and everyone else is wrong! Wrong as 2 boys in bed!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/15/2013 at 20:05
i need more than that...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/15/2013 at 20:14
Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:

LOUD AND CLEAR THANK YOU 

ILya...

It is the particulate matter mass that I am referring too...  To Original Poster as per the intro to the ???'s

"was wondering if rain, low temperatures and high humidity have any effect on bullet speed..does it cause drag or does the bullet and its shockwave clear a path..."
 
Make a distinction between gases and liquids. Rain introduces non-gaseous particles into the air. Humidity simply changes the gas mixture.
Shockwave business is a little complicated. In supersonic flight the projectile's shockwave largely trails the projectile.
Then there is the effect of superheated ionized surrounding the projectile and evaporating things.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/15/2013 at 20:19
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:


Unlike some super experienced hunters out there, I find terminology to be supremely important.  Words have meaning and precision of expression is superbly important.



Well said!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/15/2013 at 21:36
Here is what Hornady has to say about it:


NOTE: especially the part that says:
"The firearm's barrel is elevated. The axis of the bore becomes the line of departure for a bullet leaving its muzzle. So rapidly do gravity and air resistance come into play that the bullet departure line is tangent to the trajectory only at the muzzle. The trajectory immediately begins to drop below the bore axis. "

It has nothing to do with what anyone "thinks", the laws of physics are pretty well defined.

And, what ILya said is fairly close to what I said, though incomplete.  

Regardless, as soon as the bullet leaves the barrel, it begins to FALL back to earth.  When you put a rocket motor on it, that can change, until then, drag and gravity always win...



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/16/2013 at 09:53
First, let us define our vocabulary in this particular frame of reference (bullet fired from gun near the surface of the earth.)

1.  Rise: to increase the distance between our bullet and the earth's surface.
2.  Fall: to decrease the distance between our bullet and the earth's surface.
3.  Trajectory: the curved path our bullet takes in flight.
4.  Gravitation: the force of attraction between 2 objects, proportional to their individual masses and the distance between them.


Yes, the trajectory immediately begins to drop below the bore axis, and if that axis were parallel to the earth, the object would indeed begin to fall immediately. However, the bore axis is usually not parallel, and the bullet must rise (relative to the earth's surface) before it begins to fall.

Frame of reference, frame of reference, frame of reference!

If we isolate just these 2 objects, the earth's surface and the bullet, a typical flight involves a portion of rising and a portion of falling, all expending energy, all under the influence of gravitation and drag.

If we agree that the bullet immediately begins falling, then we need a new definition of "falling." 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/16/2013 at 10:39
Dan, in an effort to not drive you to the loony bin, I went back and re-read your initial post on the matter.  Your frame of reference is bullet and bore, mine has been bullet and earth.

You are absolutely correct: relative to the bore axis, the bullet immediately begins to fall.


And the ship "sailed calmly on."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/16/2013 at 10:48
I have to go "drop some kids off at the pool" after this one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/16/2013 at 21:20
Do they drop or fall???


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/16/2013 at 21:23
Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:

Do they drop or fall???



do they drop or fall...  

Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/16/2013 at 22:46
 
YEP   -- Gravity is Not your friend.
 
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8shots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 06:06
When I shoot upwards the buck falls, when I shoot perpendicular the buck falls, when I shoot downwards the buck falls.
 
What more do I need to know?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peddler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 06:30
Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

When I shoot upwards the buck falls, when I shoot perpendicular the buck falls, when I shoot downwards the buck falls.
 
What more do I need to know?


8shots you stole my thunder, that's almost exactly what I was going to say. I have a headache after all that stuff, but you know what , I love it. I've learned more on this forum than you can imagine. Now next month when Whitetail season opens I hope when I have " Bucky " in my scope I don't start thinking about all of this " S--T "

Thanks guys that was great.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 07:10
blank dead in its tracks.
 
I blanked the dear right there.
 
I checked my data started to pull squeezed just a little bit more and blanked him
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 08:02
now this argument doesn't work for everyone especially those who hunt deciduous specimens.
 
I took the shot and I blanked the tree!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 11:59
I re-read this thread, since I had a moment of free time.

As it often is, the argument here is about terminology since all involved parties seem to understand what is happening with the bullet.

Generally speaking, I think RC had his terminology pretty nicely squared away (except for that perpendicular thing) and KB had to move quickly to refine a couple of terms.

A couple more comments on terminology:
-The whole business with "fall", "drop" and the rest of it required some comment on the frame of reference.
-The only thing that you know from gravity is this: the moment the bullet leaves the muzzle of the barrel it starts accelerating toward the center of the earth.
-"Accelerating toward the center of the earth" does not necessarily mean that is is getting closer to earth for the initial portion of the flight.  You have to look at the trajectory and figure out the apex point.  The bullet gets closer to the earth after it has passed the apex and is getting further from the earth before it passes the apex.  However, it is accelerating toward the earth the whole time: before and after the apex.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 15:22
Well said.

We can move on to other things now.

Or not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 15:55
I didn't redefine anything... I merely resorted to PHYSICS.  A discipline some of you ignore.  Physics is correct at all times... bullets begin to FALL as soon as they leave the barrel, no matter where the the hole in the barrel is pointes... UP, down, sideways.  As soon as the bullet leaves the barrel it begins to FALL.

I've redefined nothing, you however continue to try...


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